Excessive fish poo?

[Southerrrngirrl]

I seem to have a problem with what looks to be excessive fish poo. Any ideas what might cause this? I've had this tank running for over a year and never noticed anything like this before. I don't think its overfeeding as I only feed 3-4 small shrimp pellets every 2-3 days.

There are... approximately about 23 fish in the tank, mainly tetras, corys, loaches and a rainbow shark. Tank size is a AR850 - 150ish litres.

About 3-4 months ago, I pulled the tank apart and removed the tacky plastic looking gravel and replaced it with finer, more natural looking gravel. I've never really had to gravel vac before, but now, its like i need to do it every day. And its not a job I particularly like, mainly cos the stupid fish won't stay away from the vac and end up getting themselves sucked up.

[David R]

Maybe instead of replacing the plastic plants you should have got some plastic fish to go with them. :lol:

Fish are animals, animals eat, animals poo. Its a fact of life and fish keeping. Consider yourself lucky, my fish do poos that are bigger than some of your fish!!

[HummingBird]

It's probably just the difference in substrate size, so you're just seeing the poo more. People always comment on how "clean" my tanks look and it's like, you aren't here when I suck up what comes out of the gravel.

[sharn]

Agreed, with a larger gravel the gunk can get right down and out of view whereas with a finer substrate it tends to stay on top more- its easier to get it all out that way though

[Southerrrngirrl]

Thanks, I thought it might have been the change in gravel. Thing is now.. my tetras are dying. I had 6 cardinals, its now down to 3, same with the glowlight tetras, alll of them died this month. I was having such a good run with this tank. I suppose it could be old age, but my black neons and silvertips aren't dying and I had those ones much longer than the glowlights & cardinals.

I bet if I go test the water now, there will be ammonia due to the amount of poo in the water. How long does it take for a fish to die from exposure to ammonia? Cos the deaths seem to be happening pretty quick. Like I'm not noticing sick fish at all, I'm just finding them dead and sucked up on the filter.

[davidb]

how often are you doing water changes? I would have thought 23 small fish in 150L would be alright for stocking? :-?

[Ianab]

The fish that have died, did they look well fed, or where they hollow bellied? You say you only feed a few pellets every other day, do the little middle swimming fish like the tetras actually get enough to eat?

I'm just wondering if the pellets are being hogged by the bottom feeding fish and some are missing out. I feed my fish at least 2 times a day, and a variety of food types depending on whats in the tank. Only small amounts of course, but the tetras and barbs seem to go for the flake food from the surface and as it sinks. Any they miss gets hoovered up by the loaches and catfish. A few sinking shrimp tablets for the loaches and cichlids that hang out at the bottom and some algae tablets or chunk of vege for the plecs. A lump of freeze dried worms is a treat and gets stuck in the middle of the glass and usually creates a brief feeding frenzy.

I would suggest some different foods, still small amounts, but more often. Watch to see it all gets eaten right away of course, but different fish have different feeding habits. This will probably increase your poo issue, but I dont think thats a problem. Just break out the gravel vac when it gets obvious and use it to do a small water change.

If your filters are working properly then they will take care of the ammonia, a bit of fish poo wont overload them. My bigger plecos probably do No2s that are bigger than some of your fish Ammonia will kill fish quick by damaging their gills. They will all start looking distressed and gasping. Take a sniff of some ammonia based cleaner and you will know how they feel

Cheers

Ian

[jn]

Could some bad bacteria have been stirred up when you changed the gravel?

You said you never really had to gravel vac before so I get the impression you didn't do it regularly? Perhaps there were pockets of anaerobic stuff that the fish have been fighting till now? Have you done any water tests? Could your newer gravel be affecting your pH?

[DutchKiwiCowboy2]

When I first started 3 months ago I had problems with ammonia due to the cycling process, I lost five neons in as many days. They all died within 24 hrs of first showing simptoms.

But more information would be needed to make a better diagnosis. Post your test results, details of how often you do water cahnges and how much, and anything else you can think of. even if you think it might not have anything to do with the problem.

Maybe then someone can be of more help.

Happy Fishwatching

DKC

[Southerrrngirrl]

Another dead fish discovered yesterday, and yet another this afternoon. He was definitely not dead this morning.. nor did I notice any sick looking fish. I know, because I did a water change this morning.

Tested the water yesterday, there was maybe no more than 0.25ppm ammonia. Enough to kill??

The fish that have died, did they look well fed, or where they hollow bellied? You say you only feed a few pellets every other day, do the little middle swimming fish like the tetras actually get enough to eat?

I don't think they're being underfed, as soon as I drop the pellets in, they're all getting into them. Its kinda hard to tell examining the dead fish, the filter seems to.. suck them out of shape

I aim to do weekly water changes, but sometimes other things get in the way so they aren't always as regular as I'd like, but its generally every week of about 2-3 buckets which is 40-60 litres.

Could some bad bacteria have been stirred up when you changed the gravel?

You said you never really had to gravel vac before so I get the impression you didn't do it regularly? Perhaps there were pockets of anaerobic stuff that the fish have been fighting till now? Have you done any water tests?

I changed the gravel like.. probably 4 months ago, I would have expected something to happen long before now.

I did gravel vac with the other gravel, but it just not as much as what I seem to have to do now.

Could your newer gravel be affecting your pH?

Our tap water is naturally very soft, so prone to pH changes. It comes out of the tap fairly neutral say 6.8-7, but testing the water from the tank its always higher, most recently as high as 7.6, but not high enough to register a result with the high range pH test. As far as I can tell the change of gravel has not affected the pH.

All water tests have been ok, no nitrites, acceptable levels of nitrates, and well after that water change ammonia should be nil.

I do seem to have quite a growth of black beard algae goin on, could this be a sign that there something not right with the filter? Oh.. mabye the filter is the problem? You're supposed to replace those ceramic noodles right? How often? The were changed around the same time as the gravel. And I've since replaced the carbon. And theres a phos-zorb bag in there too.

[jn]

I'm surprised that you have ammonia registering something other than zero? When did you last test? Have you added new fish lately? Have your grown signigicantly? Your filter should be coping.

The ceramic noodles should never need replacing. They shouldn't need cleaning either. These noodles house the bacteria you work so hard to build up. If you changed them when you changed your gravel then you must have triggered a whole new cycle with a full tank load of fish but surely even if you did it should be finished by now? (very odd!)

I don't know about the AR850 but if its the same as the other types the most you have to do is rinse the very top layer of filter wool. The carbon probably isn't necessary, from what I've been told, if you add fertiliser for your plants, all the stuff you add just gets locked up by the carbon. It's useful if you've been treating with medication and stuff but probably not necessary the rest of the time. Get some plain filter wool to put over the filter sponges. (I actually cut the old wool off the plastic cartridge and tipped out the carbon and kept the plastic tray to hold new carbon if I ever needed to add any! Very handy!)

How long has the phos-zorb bag been in there?

[Southerrrngirrl]

jn, I test the water reasonably regularly, at least once a fortnight anyway. No new fish added lately. The noodles weren't totally replaced. Sorry I should have explained. A few months ago I bought another tank, same set up but slightly smaller, I took a couple of handfuls of the noodles from the old tank and put them in the new tank to help get a biological filter going in there, and replaced what I took from the old tank with new noodles that came with the new tank. As a precaution I did increase my testing of the water after I did that to ensure I hadn't messed up the filter, and everything was clear for several weeks afterward so I assumed everything was ok. Even if it hadn't have been ok, I would have expected something would have occurred long before now.

I don't think they've grown significantly.. biggest fish in the tank is the rainbow shark who is probably getting near two years old, well thats how long I've had him anyway and he was pretty small when I got him. All the rest are just fairly small fish.

Phos-zorb bag has been in there for... 2-3 months maybe?

[Southerrrngirrl]

2 months late since my last post on this and, yep I have even less fish now. from a school of 6 cardinals I now only have 2, had 3 corys, 1 died, now got another on the way out, saved a silvertip who was sucked up to the filter the other he was still alive (what a way to die). I caught him and kept him in the net for a few days so he wouldn't get sucked back to the filter, but he doesn't look good.. redness around the gills and a below his dorsal fin.

Something is not right here. And I don't know what, its very frustrating. I checked the ammonia level this morning, and it was barely detectable, the test water was barely green, more yellow than anything which is a pretty low reading right?!

I'm at the point where I'm not going to buy anymore fish. And once the last fish dies, thats it I'm packing it all up and ditching the hobby. Probably in favour of one that doesn't involve death!

I'm desperate! I really don't want to give it up. I now have massive amounts of blackbeard algae in the tank, I blacked the tank out for a week, didn't seem to do anything. I've tried planting heaps of plants, they just end up dying or being taken over by the algae.

I think the problems really started when I changed gravel from the large to the small fine stuff. Should I change back to bigger gravel? And what about the blackbeard? That stuff is growing everywhere, on the filter outlet on the filter sock, on all decorations and has completely covered the driftwood. Oh and ALL over the glass at the back of the tank. Should I just strip it down completely, scrape it all off and start over?

[xmamx]

Its a shame to hear about your fish dying. I would probably strip down the whole tank as something isnt right. The blackbeard algae is a pain to get rid of (only way is to do a full strip down or use flourish excel (very pricey but good).

May also pay to look into getting another filter as you filter may not be working up to scratch and therefore your ammonia is still high. Normally when i test for ammonia the result is clear with no colour (i use a nutrafin test kit).

Are you on tank water (rain or bore) as i have read somewhere that rain water can be high in phosphates which is good for growing algae (someone correct me if i am wrong).

So my suggestions are:

1: increase yhe amount water changes and maybe change up to 40 - 50% if need be to get your ammonia reading to almost nothing

2: see if you can find a new filter, even second hand one off trademe

3: do a full tank strip down and throw out all plants etc with black beard on them and give the tank a good scrub. Leave the filter though. Maybe keep %50 of the water though as you dont want to change all of it (the only downside is that the blackbeard will be in the water so it will move to clean tank but at least it wont be established)

4: run both filters on the tank as you can never have enough filtration sometimes.

5: even better option see if you can get another tank with filter, cycle it up and move your fish into that. Then strip down your aqua one tank and clean and maybe change gravel as well. Then once the other tank is stable move the water, filter and fish back into your aqua one.

Hopefully it gets better.

Cheers,

Xmamx

[Southerrrngirrl]

Thanks for your reply xmamx.

I use err... I forget the name of the test kit, but it the test water will change colour depending on the level of ammonia, nitrate etc. For the ammonia, if there is none present, the water will turn yellow, if theres any ammonia present, depending on what levels, it will turn green. (low ppm would be light green, high ppm would be dark green etc)

We're on town water supply, but do have problems with high phosphate. Thats why I put a phos-zorb bag in, but it seems to have done bugger all.

I don't know if I can get another filter, the tank I have is an AR850 which is an all in one package kinda deal. But I don't know why I would get a new one anyway as i don't believe there is anything wrong with the current one. I've had this tank for over nearly 2 years now, and had it running successfully with out the problems I have now. I really think it all stems from the gravel change.

I am leaning towards a complete strip down. I have another smaller tank AR620 which I can transfer the fish into, although the filter has packed up in that one, I also have 2 small AR350s lying around. I guess as a temporary measure I could put one of those in the AR620 just to keep the water flowing for the period that i'm doing the change.

[rollergirl]

Blackbeard algae is a pain in the ****!!

When I had it I got rid of it (eventually) by : firstly removing all the ornaments and leaving them out in the sun for a day, then tried to scrape the alage off then after they had sat in the hot summer sun, but even then, it was tenaciously clinging to everything (all plastic plants etc) so just gave up on most of them and bought real plants to compete with the algae instead. Then added Flourish Excel to the tank daily, I can't remember how much but it was something like 1/4 cap daily (in a 60L tank...Just added however much the LFS had said to), for 2 weeks. This got rid of most of the algae and the plants I had added loved it. The remaining algae I assume got eaten by a blackline flying fox that I bought specifically for that purpose on the advice of the LFS.

Unfortunately the flying fox obviously decided it didn't like the tank that much and jumped out one day about a month after adding it (found it all dried up on the floor one night when I got home from work ) It was getting a bit big for the tank anyway though, grew amazingly fast.

Anyway back to the blackbeard- I STILL get small amounts of it in that tank, even though since then, the gravel has changed, the ornaments are different, the filter was scrubbed hardout and media slowly changed over. I think the only reason it's not taking over again is that I have quite a lot of indian fern in the tank competing with the algae for resources. Like I said, it's a pain in the proverbial ****!!

[Southerrrngirrl]

Oh I know, I've read plenty of posts and articles relating to blackbeard, so I know what a pain in the a$$ it can be. Never though it would get this bad though!

Anyways, visited my local LFS during my lunch hour... $74.00 later I have new light bulbs to put in the tank. And after a lengthly discussion with a staff member there on the gravel and ammonia and excess poo etc.. I also walked away with some stress zyme. Yes I know, its generally unnecessary but I can't do what I need to naturally, so now I have to try chemically!

So my plan is, to remove fish and put them into my ar620 temporarily, remove the ornaments and scrub scrub scrub! At this stage I'm not going to change the gravel back.. will see how I go with the new lights, new plants and stress zyme.

Wish me luck!

[jn]

Have you tried feeding them only once every 3-4 days?

Are you still feeding those shrimp pellets?

I ended up buying some recently...to suit a goldfish who seemed addicted to them! Anyway...my tank was cycling a little from the new fish but I was feeding the shrimp pellets every other day and on those days the ammonia was always worse and there was also more poo. I think they're a bit rich.

I suggested once that you take out the phoszorb and your carbon and try the 'natural' way for a while. Did that help?

How much phosphate is in your tap water?!

You mention ammonia, what's your nitrite doing?

I still have a hard time understanding how there can be excess poo if they aren't being overfed? Oh.. have you check your filter inlet and outlet pipes for decaying debris? Does the flow seem strong enough?

[morfin]

What about readings for nitrite and nitrate - what are they showing? Nitrite spikes will kill fish just as quickly and high nitrates could also be an issue.

[Southerrrngirrl]

Have you tried feeding them only once every 3-4 days?

Are you still feeding those shrimp pellets?

I ended up buying some recently...to suit a goldfish who seemed addicted to them! Anyway...my tank was cycling a little from the new fish but I was feeding the shrimp pellets every other day and on those days the ammonia was always worse and there was also more poo. I think they're a bit rich.

I suggested once that you take out the phoszorb and your carbon and try the 'natural' way for a while. Did that help?

How much phosphate is in your tap water?!

You mention ammonia, what's your nitrite doing?

I still have a hard time understanding how there can be excess poo if they aren't being overfed? Oh.. have you check your filter inlet and outlet pipes for decaying debris? Does the flow seem strong enough?

No I quit feeding the shrimp pellets, they only get them once a blue moon now. I never removed the phoszorb or carbon, what should that have done?

There's no nitrites, less than 10ppm nitrate (i think) I know it was a low reading anyway.

I can't recall if I ever tested the tap water for phosphate, might give that ago tonight.

Seriously, they are not over fed. I feed them like a tiny pinch of flake food maybe every 3 days. I do often see them (especially the gourami's) picking at the BBA, I do wonder if they are in fact eating it.

I also wonder if the BBA that was growing on the filter sock was seriously restricting the water flow and making the filter inefficient? Probably a contributing factor anyway.

Unfortunately all the changes have come too late for my blue ram, found him when I got home on Friday dead, sucked up to the filter.

So after removing him and the dead cory I changed the light bulbs, I now have 2 blue ones and a pink one. I think 2 x 20000K and 1 x 10000. I removed plastic ornaments that were covered with the BBA, and scraped everything I could to remove as much of the algae as possible off the glass and other things

Did a big water change, and stuck in new plants. Checked in the morning, all seems ok. Did an ammonia test on Saturday evening, nil ammonia.

From what I can see, there doesn't seem to be nearly as much poo collecting on the gravel. But we'll see. Could also be a trick of the new lights, its a bit harder to see in with that blue light.

I am a bit concerned about the gourami's now. Although they are feeding, they are hanging out at the top of the tank, they do move towards me when I come over to the tank as if they think they're getting fed but then retreat back to the hiding after I'm gone. There's no sign of redness or anything else.. fingers crossed they'll be ok.

[jn]

I've always read that with some of those additional filter resins etc that they can eventually leach stuff back into your tank if they're not changed often enough.

Actually, it seems odd that you have ammonia registering but no nitrite?

Are you doing the tests yourself? Maybe your test kit is bad and your fish have some disease or parasite rather than a water quality problem?

I would try to remove as much extra stuff as possible from the tank, any plants that may be dying, and anything with large amounts of algae on it (driftwood, ornaments etc). If your fish are gasping at the top they could be short of oxygen.. I think decomposing waste might use up some of the extra oxygen in the water. Have you got an airstone you can drop in to se if they get an relief from that?

I remember this from some pond stuff I used to kill algae and then 'de-sludger' stuff as well, they told me to make sure the pump was running because the oxygen levels would suffer.

[Southerrrngirrl]

I have removed all ornaments apart from the driftwood, it really is the feature piece in the tank, and I suspect I would have 1 grumpy rainbow shark and two sad loaches if I was to remove it (they all hide in/under it). And it would be impossible to remove without removing loaches in it. Hence my reluctance.

In my time of keeping fish I've never had a positive nitrite test. Ammonia yes, but never nitrite. What does that mean? Yes I'm doing the tests myself. Its one of those box set kits, has high ph, normal ph, nitrate, nitrite and ammonia tests. You put the test water in the tube then depending on what test add so many drops from bottle 1 and so many drops from bottle 2, shake then wait 5 mins, compare the colour of the test water to the result chart. I've had it for maybe 2 years? time for a new one perhaps? Do the chemicals become ineffective or expire over time??

No don't have an airstone. Should I get one?

[jn]

I think the test kits can get past their best but 2 years doesn't sound bad. Maybe you can take some water to your lfs and have them run the full range of tests on it just to see ( think they normally do this for free).

I mean, your fish are dying, so something isn't right. There's no good reason to have any ammonia in your tank at the amount you seem to be feeding....so if your water was in fact fine then you'd be looking at some sort of disease or some by product of your bad algae?

Someone told me that you can kill algae on driftwood by pouring boiling water on it (out of the tank of course!) Would that be an optn? The wood isn't rotting or something?

I've had nitrite readings on a cycling tank. It's more toxic than ammonia and it's the stage between ammonia and nitrate (2 different types of bacteria that do the conversion from one to the other)

How about a picture of the tank to see if that spurs any ideas from some of the more experienced people?

Don't know what to tell you about an air stone.. it's just a suggestion. I'm sure under normal circumstances they not necessary, was just thinking if your fish are hanging out at the top, sometimes its cause there's more oxygen there.