Janelle Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Hello everyone, I did a search on the forums and found a lot of helpful info on breeding White Cloud Mountain Minnows but I still decided to start my own thread so I could ask a couple of questions concerning my own particular circumstance. I've just filled my little 22 litre with water. I didn't want to put gravel in yet... But I did take a couple (as in, two) plants from my 72 litre tank and held them down with a few heavy stones from a bag of old aquarium gravel. Now I want to temporarily move my WCMM in there to see if they will breed if Ed (my shubunkin) is not there to eat all their offspring, the little scavenger! So I would like to know, since this tank is new tonight, how long should I wait before moving the fish? Do I need to make sure the tank is cycled? Should I add water from their current tank to the new tank first? I have already put in some stress zyme and I was told cleaner water is better and not necessarily needing to be cycled if the water is clean. (FYI, it's tapwater straight from a Christchurch tap.) Another thing, I'm having difficulty finding something to cover the filter intake with. I thought pantyhose, an unused kitchen sponge, a towel, mutilating my smallest fishnet, and dismissed all for lack of knowledge. What would be suitable and easily obtainable but still let the water through? Finally, a circumstantial question. Of my six WCMM I only have one that looks *definitely* female. I have seen three males display simultaneously (beautiful!), so at least half of them are male, and the other two which are a little smaller than the others are not displaying or getting a noticeable bulge in their belly so I really can't tell but I suspect they are also males. Since the new tank is a lot smaller than their current one, should I move only a couple of males in case they fight, or is this not really an issue and it should be safe to move them all? I asked this on another forum and their response seemed to be, "depends on the personalities of the fish." Well, they already fight a lot in the 72 litre, so I'm just wondering what you guys think. Thanks for any help. I don't even mind if I'm not successful at raising any fry as long as I don't risk losing the WCMM I have. I'm quite fond of them. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HummingBird Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Yes the tank needs to be cycled, but I think that's what stress zyme does, doesn't it? I'm not 100% sure because I've never used it, but I thought it contained beneficial bacteria. Preferentially you'll want a 2:1 female:male ratio when trying to breed them, or at least that's what worked for me, so no single female gets picked on too much. Another point to consider before trying to breed them would be to get them as much live (or if you don't have that, frozen) food as you can so they're fit, healthy, at their best and feel like breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 How many fish are you contemplating putting into the tank? If my memory serves me correctly, there is no additives used in Chch water. Is this correct? If so, I would use two trios of WCMM with a sponge or box filter in the tank. That is a small number of fish and should cycle the tank as they go. As for the plants, why not plant them in a small pot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Hummingbird - I guess I'll have a bit of a problem with the ratio since I only have one obvious female out of my six. Yes, Stress Zyme apparently contains beneficial bacteria but I'm under the impression it just kick-starts the cycling rather than skipping the entire process. Alan - Christchurch water (in my opinion) is the same if not better quality than bottled water as long as you don't have old, rusty pipes (which I don't). There is no chlorine or flouride in it since it is groundwater sourced from underground aquifers (to my knowledge). The tank is a little Aqua One AR-126 with a filter and light attached to the lid, so I would prefer to figure something to cover the intake rather than have to buy a new filter. I'm not familiar with how to plant the plants I get in the shop in pots suitable for the aquarium. If this doesn't work for me that's not a problem. The tank was originally bought to house a betta for my boyfriend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wok Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 If you need more WCMM I can bring some down with me tomorrow. but you will need to pick them up from my motel as I will not have any transport. I have just chucked in tap water, weed and then wcmm. done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpidersWeb Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 For the filter inlet: Your LFS may stock a product called the 'BioClear Sponge Filter' its an air powered filter that is often used in fry tanks, and cost me about $8 last time I bought one. Now the handy thing with these is with a little effort the filter foam can be squeezed over your filter inlet, I push hard and twist and eventually it gives up and goes on. I did this on a Jebo tank however, which came with two inlet options, a big bulgy type fitting and another which was pointed and a little thinner - the latter worked, so you'd need to make sure the standard strainer isnt too big, or if you can remove it so you can put the filter over the pipe itself. It will need cleaning whenever water flow is reduced too much. I have used pantyhose before but I found it clogged up too fast (like 1-2 days). Curtain netting might work too, or an old fish net...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle Posted March 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Wok - I have sent you a PM. SpidersWeb - Thanks for the tips. Just last week I splurged $2.95 on a small Marina net, it was the smallest one I could find in the store. I may just buy a second one since it's so cheap, cut it, and use a rubber band to tie it around the filter. It's actually a bulgy type so maybe that would work best for me. I hope the netting really is small enough to keep the fry out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilson Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 wcmm are great fish and they dont take much to breed the net over the filter is a good idea they scatter there eggs so have a clump of java moss or a plant like it and once you think the parents have spawned remove the parents (they eat most of the eggs) another good trick to breeding them is give the parents live food for a few days - they just seem to like it good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Depending on the power of the suction of the filter, the net is a BAD thing as the fry can be sucked up into it and stick like flies to sticky paper, or else, because of their emergence size, will go straight thru all but the finest net, brineshrimp net comes to mind. Sponge is a much better suggestion. That is one of the reasons breeders use a sponge filter or a box filter with a fry tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle Posted March 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2007 Oh dear... we already put the net around the filter so I guess that was a waste of a good net. I'll have a look for another way to cover the filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle Posted April 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Hello everyone, just an update! I have a tendency to feed my fish and then watch them for hours (not kidding - my flatmates think I'm weird). Since I last posted in this thread, I moved all the (around 15) WCMM into the big tank and put my goldfish in the small tank with the powerful filter, since he can handle it. Today I fed my fish microworms and I pulled the curtain behind the tank so i could better see the microworms wriggle around (yes... I guess I am a bit strange) and instead I saw some other kind of movement - BABY WCMM! They are so tiny, but from what I've heard about how small newborn fry are I'd say they've been in the tank for a while. They're just sticking to the back of the tank all over the place, about three amongst the oxygen weed I put floating in one corner, and another three visible by the top of the filter in the other corner. I really hope they don't get eaten but I'm afraid to try moving them. So now, do I just leave them be? I've been changing the water twice a week as usual but now do I still keep doing the water changes? I can't tell if I'm sucking up baby fish with the dirty water! I have a net breeder but is it best to leave them in the main tank since they seem to be surviving okay? Opinions would be appreciated, thanks! I'm really excited. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Congratulations Janelle, they definitely sound like wcmm fry. The parents don't eat the fry very often but are there other fish in the tank? If so they will certainly chomp their way through them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle Posted April 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 The only other fish I have is my goldfish, whom I have safely tucked away in the tank in my bedroom. Only WCMM in the tank, varying sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Janelle, you're not weird, we all spend forever looking at our tanks. Since I was made to move the majority of my tanks to the back shed my husband is forever complaining I'm not in the house. Fish are for looking at, its good karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianab Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Yes, you should be fine just leaving them be. Keep the adults well fed, and as long as there is plenty of cover for the fry most of them will survive. I would skip the tank vacumn for a couple of weeks and just take some water from the top, maybe with a plastic container or jug. Then you can check if you have scooped up any fish. In a couple of weeks they will have grown enough avoid the vacumn and be seen easily. My guppy tank is usually teeming with fry, so the gravel vacumn sucks up a few. I just let the bucket settle on the bench for a few minutes and check it before I slowly tip it out. Then just net any that got sucked into the bucket and return them to the tank Now you know why they are regarded as one of the easiest fish to breed Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilson Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 congrads Janelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janelle Posted April 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 Thanks. I bought some more plants and floated them in the tank for the babies to hide in just in case it will help. Are net breeders a bad idea? I put one of the little ones in a net breeder when I first got some of the fish, but he seemed quite depressed in there. Maybe the water quality wasn't so good, but he perked right up as soon as I let him into the main tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 Generally thinking the fish don't seem to like being enclosed in the breeding nets for too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidb Posted April 25, 2007 Report Share Posted April 25, 2007 i have a pair of wcmm and just let them do their thing. i had quite a few babies about 1cm long. i made the mistake of putting a goldfish in the tank with the babies (when they were 1cm long) and now i only have 1 left! in the parents tank there are always little silver babies swimming rounf though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricfish37 Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I too have a large number of fry, about 5 days old now. I am feeding them on finely ground dry food and that seems to be ok. My only problem is that inevitably much of the fine food sinks to the bottom uneaten, and seems to be creating small gas bubbles as it rots away. Can anybody suggest a way of getting rid of it without sucking up the fry, or is there a harmless bottom-feeding fish I could get to do the job without eating the babies? I have left the 6 adult WCMM in there, and they do not seem to be chasing or eating the fry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilson Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 how warm is the water? if it is heated you can try some dwarf corys they olny get to about 3 cm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 EF 37, for a start, cut down on how much you feed at one time. Best to feed them 4 or 5 times a day than only one or 2 times. The same amount is fed over all the times as is fed with only a few feeds. Put snails in as the cleanup crew, then when you do have to vac up the leftovers, do it thru a net and replace any babies that take the pipe trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HummingBird Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I've got a pond with a ton of baby wcmm in it as well, they've got plenty of algae to eat and are growing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricfish37 Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Thanks for the advice. The water is not heated - around 21-23 degrees, so the dwarf corys are probably not an option. I don't like the idea of snails - I've spent months getting rid of the ones that attacked my angel eggs. So I guess sucking up the residue is the answer, together with much smaller and more frequent feeds. I did not realise they would eat algae - there is plenty of that in the tank, so I might try cutting down the food drastically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr pleco Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 ive bred these consistanly for years in a small tank i put large pebbles and some jarva moss introduce three fat females and 5-6 fit males leave them for 2'3 days and on the 4 day add a jug of water that has been chilled to about 2-3 degrees c this is the trigger where they come from what sets them off is snow metling in the hills which runs into the rivers they come from . the large pebbles stop the parents getting to the eggs Imo i always remove the parents after 2 days from then and i get a better hatch rate and survival i never syphon from the top as this is where they swim when they first start swimming ,and syphon using a small tube from midwater at the front of glass to watch for straglers add green water every day or have in direct sunlight to create green water or alternativly feed for a week on infusoria then fine powder or bbs till about 3/4 cm long also can feed them with daphnia at this stage but i have actually bred these last year in outside bath with green water and never fed them once started with 6 now have around 90-100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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