New Freshwater Planted Tropical Tank - Your Input Please

[Pies]

As I have embarked on a Marine tank, I have neglected my freshwater completely. Jane, my partner is going to bring her fish and add them to my 400 litre freshwater tank. Which is going to become a sump for my marine tank. So a new freshwater tank is planed.

Not sure on size yet, will be no less than 5 ft, no more than 8.5ft. I will be 500-600 front to back, and 550 deep. Freshwater tropical, planted, c02, well lit.

Here is what is planed - 4 Filters will be used, 2x 300 watt heaters, 6 deep fluro tubes (thats six between front and back, depending on size the fluros will match). I will dose iron/fertiliser daily.

The inhabitants will be comunity, carinals, upside down cats, congo tetras, clown loachs, hatchet fish, corydoras etc. Moderate load is expected, but not a PACKED tank.

I want input for a sand bed. How deep, what to use etc. Clay? Sand? Gravel? What to use to enrich the bed etc. Warren I am keen to hear from you here.

Drilled tank for plumbing. I am NOT going to use those awefull hand over the back glass, pipes everywhere filter piping. I am going to drill 8 holes in the back glass (4 intakes 4 outlets for the 4 filters to be used). Anyone done this?

Let have it!

Mark & Jane

[Ira]

If you're already planning on drilling it, why not use a sump for it too? That's what I'd do instead of using something like four 404s or whatever your preference for a cannister filter is.

[Pies]

I already use a sump for the saltwater and it works out really well.

The problem I see with a sump is the design of the overflows, as taking water only from the surface is not going aid mechnical filteration very much as none of the gunk on the bottom will be taken out. Also the gaps for the water to flow through would have to be very small to prevent small fish going over them, so the water passing though the sump would be too little.

Clogging up anything with the amount of plant I will have is also a concern.

Sumps work well in the semi sterile environment of saltwater, but not sure if its the right move for freshwater, just too much to worry about.

We already have the 4 canister filters so intend on reusing them.

If anyone uses a sump type of system / wet dry I would like to see a plumbing diagram or some photos.

So back to me questions, anyone?

[Rob]

Well I haven't got as much experience with planted tanks as some but I'll offer my suggestions.

Fine sand is not generally recomended due to compaction and anaerobic areas. Best choice is coarse sand/fine gravel (about 3mm diameter from memory). Then comes the debate over what to have under the gravel - clay, aquatic potting mix etc. I personally use red clay (that I can get locally from a road cutting), others in the club have used potting mix with success (though I suspect that this has the potential to cause problems). I seem to recall that Warren doesn't use any thing under the gravel - the argument being that what nutritional benefit the plants get from the sublayer diminishes with time and therefore he opts for regular insertion of fertiliser pellets into the gravel. Admittedly I also use substrate fertilisers - so I'm not really relying on the substrate too much. Remember when selecting sand/gravel that it doesn't have a calcareous content otherwise your pH and hardness will be a continual problem.

For substrate fertilisers you can use the commercial products or the other one I've heard of people using successfully is dried sheep pellets pushed into the substrate.

As for how deep - my planted tanks have a total substrate depth of 5-6 cm though some books recommend more (~8cm). I guess the thing is that if you can actually see that depth of gravel it may look a little weird (so perhaps have the facing of the stand/cabinet raised to disguise the gravel substrate bed).

I personally haven't opted for CO2 - I freely admit that a well setup and maintained CO2 tank looks awesome - but it seems that these tanks discourage the use of stem plants since they're rapid growth means that there is a high level of maintenance required to keep it from looking like an overgrown jungle. I also get annoyed when people having problems growing plants think that CO2 will solve all their problems when I think getting adequate _quality_ light and fixing nutrient imbalances/problems should be their first port of call. Also the quick fixers neglect the whole CO2 level/pH/hardness relationship (sorry guys - one of my pet peeves).

From personal experience I wouldn't include clown loaches in a nicely planted tank - I found that they disfigured my sword plants by putting numerous horse shoe shaped holes in the leaves (which I found so annoying that I took the clown loaches back to the shop).

Just my thoughts - Rob

[Pies]

Some good advice for sure, thanks Rob.

As this is a 'merger' of tanks, there will actually be 8 clown loaches! As well as the several other species I have. Ohh and I know all about the horseshoe shaped holes :>

I have been using c02 for 3 years with good results, and your right about to much growth of some stem plants. As with the caniser filters, we all ready have a c02 system so will use it. Although water fertilisation/iron addition is going to be done much differently I think with this tank (dosing pumps - persistelic will be used I think).

I currently use 2-3mm gran gravel with laterite and clay in the sand bed (with 2cm sand along the bottom). You are right about the raised gravel level looking weird, so it can be important to have a high beval accross the front to disguise it.

I'm an avid water tester, and am happy to combat PH/KH issues.

Good advice on light, we will have heaps, all t8 tubes (unless some cheap T5 present themselves) 6500 & 6000k and maybee 1 03 actinic.

Cheers Pies

[Warren]

Hi Mark,

Here's what I'd do. Since you've got the Fluvals you may as well use them. They will be ok for at least 1500L in a heavily planted tank, as the plants will do most of the biological work. Make sure your water return is below the surface and doesn't disturb it too much or the CO2 will get expelled. Don't use aeration. You won't need to worry about plant debris clogging up the filter intakes. If the plants are growing properly there will be very little in the way of dead leaves etc. You will see when a leaf is starting to die and have plenty of opportunity to remove it before it decays.

Don't put Clown Loaches in a planted tank. You will be forever re-anchoring any plant with a soft stem (most of them) and they will never start to grow properly.

I'd go taller than 550mm. If you can go 650 or 700 all the better. The plants won't grow to their full potential in a shallow tank.

For lighting use Philips TLD96's. They are a 5 Phosphor high colour rendering daylight tube. The fish look great and the plants grow very well. They’re available up to 1500mm (5’).

You can go all out with Laterite if you like but a much cheaper option is to use Aquatic Potting Mix available at garden shops (well Palmers has it at least). Beware of standard potting mix as is often has too much organic matter that might rot and release gas + poison the substrate. Use about 20mm approx 50mm under the gravel. So, if you are having an uneven / profiled gravel bed, you'll need to put gravel down at the surface height -70mm first. Use heaps of wood, it seems to help the plants grow better.

Laterite only lasts 12-24 months in most cases after which you need to add iron + macro nutrient tablets.

Don't get stuck on just using iron fertiliser. There is much more to plant growth than just iron. Make sure the fertiliser also has N, K and trace elements in the correct ratios. You may also have to add P if the fish don't produce enough.

Your first post suggests a moderate fish load. Keep in mind that in a planted tank the plants come first and fish second. The quantity and size of the fish are limited by the tanks metabolic rate. If you add more lights, more CO2 and trim the plants twice a week you can have more fish. Less light, CO2 and slower growth rates means less fish. There is a balance between the P and N produced by the fish and the rate the plants use it. If the balance is tipped one way or the other the plants will be effected.

Too much P & N (too many fish / not enough water changes) will cause algae to dominate plant growth - hair and stringy types. Too little P & N will lead to slow plant growth and dark surface algae stuck to the plant leaves.

I’d think seriously about under gravel heating too. If you put about 5-10% of the heating under the gravel it helps to keep it fresh by creating small amounts of flow. The heating wire can go either in the tank or under it. Its useful to be able to regulate the amount of power going to the undergravel heating system so the correct flow can be set up. You want just enough to keep the gravel fresh, but not so much that the useful nutrients get washed out. Since the substrate fertiliser is very rich, washing the nutrients out will cause a massive algae outbreak.

For a really good reference on how to control algae and therefore set up a really good stable planted tank check out this article if you are not already familiar with it.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilize ... onlin.html

[reef]

i dont think a sump is a good idea in a planted tank as this remove c02 from the water when the water drains into the sump. canister filter is a good idea but when the tank is setup for a few months the media can be removed as the dirt will trap in the canister a cause excess phostphates and nutrients.

Once the tank is establised the plants should be using most of the nutrients.

t5s would be the way to go for lighting.

[Pies]

Reef. As you know I use T5s for my marines and am failry happy with them. The problem is getting them at a reasonable price, and getting bulb replacements when nessessary. If you know anywhere to get some let me know.

Warren: Thanks for that. Very good advice by the looks of it. I'll read through that article and no doubt talk to you before going ahead.

Cheers

Pies

[Warren]

I'm not familiar with T5's, but I think you'll find the TLD96 is virtually identical. Its a 6500K tube, 5 Phosphor true daylight tube. It is very white in appearance. The 1500mm (5') is only 58W however and about 1100 lumens. Is it similar? I bet the price is a bit better than a T5, - they're about $10.00 each for the 58W. Smaller tubes are a bit cheaper.

[Pies]

T5 are smaller tubes. The 'older' fat fluros are 'T12', the newer slimmer and most commin fluro are T8, the new ones are T5. The T5s are the same size as the energy saver bulbes. I have 5ft T5s in 80W (6000k and Blue).

Yeah we will prolly go with normal T8s because of cost. I am currently using a mixtrue of 6000k & 6500k bulbs from OSRAM I think. The 6000k was $8 and the 6500 about $15 from memory.

Do you use or have you tried using an 03 blue actinic on your freshwater for colour definition? If so do you still, how did it look?

[Warren]

Yeah, I tried the actinic. It made the blue in the Discus fluoresce but all other colours looked really unnatural. It didn't make the plants grow much better either. The TLD96's I use already have a fairly good UV content.

[reef]

pies.

t5s are not cheap, however you do pay for quality.

t5s can work out cheaper as you need less tubes. each t5 tube is about 4 times briter than a t8 tube.

6000 k 4ft tubes are available at any wholesale electrical store. i think philips and osram do them

[reef]

my spelling is great too.

[Pies]

Spelling shemelling

[Dr.Felix]

heres my two cents:

substrate 7cm deep gravel - with undergravel filter tray(only the tray not the airlifts etc)on the tank base. underneath this tray put 2 pottles of jbl plant fertiser per 4ft long. then cover with the gravel. fill tank and wait a week to clear. BUT WHOA do the plants grow!

depth of tank- 800mm minimum if you want to really enjoy vallisneria at twisted val in its full splendour.

lighting (for cheapness, longevity and depth punch ) - 1 400W mercury vapor (maybe a powersupply fan on your lid if you enclose it) per 4ft length.

drilling the holes - works well, but you need to use pvc threaded nipple and two 90deg threaded elbow fittings and washer setup. over the internal elbow fitting you need to fit a filter insert out of something like a rio internal filter or suchlike. it will require rinsing but stops leaves bunging your filters out and clogging your intakes.

co2 - cheapest option - go buy a 70$ mig adaptor to suit soda stream bottles. and buy a good needle valve and build/buy an excellent diffuser - a bell is not really what you want. the jbl ones are good - but are they still available? get the bottles filled at the co2 filler nearest you (bout 2.70$). not your local supermarket swap (-10$!)

[Warren]

A T5 is brighter because it's smaller than a T8 and has more watts. The really important thing to compare is lumens per watt. I bet T5's and T8's have virtually identical lumens per watt. If so then T8's are better because they are cheaper and don't run as hot. The cooler the tube runs the longer it will last.

[robert]

hi the sit www.dph.nl has a section on a planted tank useing sank and gravel substrate,lots of photos and advice and you can contact him if you need to.

[dogmatix]

hi all

From memory arcadia give there t5s a raating of 20,000 hours making them far more longer lasting than t8s they are also more powerful because they have to run on an electronic ballast not electro magnetic like standard fluro controllers. HTH

Ben

[Pies]

Thanks Dr Felix

I am tempted to use 250 watt Metal Halides on the freshwater tank, as I may end up with some spare soon when I upgrade the lighting on the reef.

I already have c02 system which works well. I will probably also use a sump to house the heater, carbon, phosban and to allow addition of iron etc via peristollic pump. Also makes water changes a little easier.

Thanks everyone. This project is on hold as my car blew up and the cost has made things a little difficult at the moment.

Pies

[Melanotaenia]

Pies,

Here's what I would do...

substrate 1st 5cm potting mix...try and get organic so that there's no fungicides or other funny chemicals in there...

next 3cm 50/50 unwashed otaki river sand (available landscapers paraparaumu)and potting mix. top 2cm well washed and slighlty sifted otaki river sand (fine gravel) so that it's mainly 2mm size for the top. cover with water and then let sit for 6 weeks. This is to settle down the soil to a nice stable anaerobic community... 4 weeks will do but studies show 6 weeks is optimum.

Wood is good because it naturally decomposes releasing Co2. Don't add any fertilizer... it will only make algae grow. your plants will get everything they need from the soil...including iron...that much potting mix should give you at least 5-10years of Iron. Also remember that fish food is fertilizer too.

As for lights look at lumens per dollar...aquatic plants like to use green yellow wavelengths...freshwater acts as a yellow/green filter so this comes as no surprise. Therefore cheapie fluoro-white gives the best growth despite what some people with dollar signs in their eyes might tell you. I have a recently published book titled 'ecology of the planted aquarium' where I learnt most of this that I could bring to the QE2 park BBQ next weekend if you want...

[Melanotaenia]

Also be prepared for and accepting of allelopathy...

[Pies]

Melanotaenia thanks for your comments.

I use a c02 injection system, as well as heavly stocked tank for my c02. Not sure how much c02 wood releases. I would like to see some info on this if you have it? Also does anyone use a c02 measurement tool (like the Dupla one?).

You substrait sound very reasonable although I would prefur to 'make it my self'. I don't like the idea of unwashed river sand simply because I would like to know whats in it. I doubt any studies have been done on Otaki. That is whats the difference between Otaki and the Hutt? etc... I was thinking of 1cm clay, then 1-2cm of latteritte, then 1-2cm sand, then 3-5cm gravel. Deep beds are the action

Lighting. hehehe my favorite subject. I don't belive your comments on 'cheapie' tubes are better. Many of us have been growing plants for some time, and although lumens is one way of measuring light, its not the best, I would be looking at PAR and Kelvin. Kelvin is 'wave length' you talk about and its is a scientific fact that 6000 6500 kelvin is the correct spectrum light for your freshwater tank. I have tried all lights, cheap white ones, gro lux, pet store brands etc and have settled on a mixture of 6000k & 6500k lights. I assure you that bulb select is important, but the cheap white bulbs are not going to give you as good a growth, colour, shape or sexual reproduction like you will get with correct spectrum bulbs. All that being said, they are still cheap, with 4ft bulbs costing between $8 - $18ea. They should be replaced every 9-11 months, as the PAR drops significiently after this period, however lumens remain very much the same (this is why its not the best method to measure light for our tanks, but is good for office lighting measurement). There is a lot of information about on lighting, have a look about. My tank is mostly Algae free, c02 and lots of correct spectrum light helps. I think I have read just about everything published on lighting, but keen to learn more

I add 2ml of Iron every 4 hrs into the tank. How does the bed last for 5 years?

Is that book the one written by Diana Walstad? If so i'd love to borrow it. Much like John Tullocks work, I love books that are looking at the entire 'ecology' of the tank, and not just at individual components.

Look foward to meeting you and drilling you about all sorts of stuff at the BBQ (if this weather sorts it self out!).

Cheers

Mark

[Melanotaenia]

I'll let you argue the scientific 'facts' with diana... She quotes a study that over three different lakes found the average wavelength at 6000k..i.e the solvents in the water act as a filter for that wavelength...but if you are going to be changing lots of water then your water is not going to filter the correct wavelengths and you will need 'filtered' tubes. She also says sunlight is best....

As for the soil (briefly) potting soil and a gravel mix contain about 40 000 mg/kg of Fe. Depending on what kind of plants and their Fe needs but assuming middle of the road that's about 500, 000 months supply of iron with a 5 cm base. Now that's inorganic Fe so we also have to also put in a factor for organic iron is how I come up with the five to ten year figure...actually it's only a conservative estimate but Diana's 10 year plus aquariums with potting soil are doing fine with still high iron levels in the soil.

I wouldn't use the sand like that..it will compact into a brick...unless you use substrate heating which will promote flow of water/nutrients

wood just a) saves you $$ on co2 thus less injected and therefore b) means less likelihood of drowning your fish in c02.

yeah the book has become the closest thing to a bible I have known...pretty much every problem or question I have ever has been answered in it.. The thing I like about it is that she takes various established 'facts' and shows how the fact has been misinterpreted or what the real 'fact' is. I personally have also done this to some of her 'facts' too - like her info on snails not eating plants is bollicks. It *is* technical so I hope you like reading science/ interpreting graphs etc...

I'll bring it on the sunny day I'm going to create this weekend.... ;O)

must sleep..

Richard

ps if you do want to follow diana's ideas then you will have to get over the 'sterility hang up' (eg not using unwashed sand) as she puts it. Simply this concept is like this.....anybody with a functioning immune sytem would recover (or not be affected ) from SARS. It was those in sterile environmnents with weakend and untrained imunne sytems (ie those in hospitals) that actually died from the disease. Also known as the 'hygiene theory'. I'll explain more on the weekend..