penguinleo Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 I am just on the edge of purchasing a new planted tank. It will probably be around 200-300L. It will be custom made with a stand and a hood. Thinking of a Fluval 305 or a Ehiem Professional 2224 or an Ehiem 2026 Professional 2 filter. Will need a 300Watt heater. Will get some underground heating, probably Red Sea or JBL. Will use some ground fertilisers, dark gravel, black background, and a CO2 pressurized injection system with some lights. I just need some help in deciding what brands you recommend. What brand of ground fertiliser would you recommend? What Kelvin ratings would I need to use? A combination of 6500 and 8000? Need some help especially on this. :lol: Will I need some reflectors? What filter would you recommend? Not the biggest one available! Just one suitable for the size of the tank. According to my calculations I think all of this will cost around $2000-2500. This excludes the CO2 system as I already have one. All help will be appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Why are you using undergravel heating if you have a heater, or viceversa?? Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Alan, undergravel heating works a treat on planted tanks. It help keep the substrate fresh but creating water micro currents and stops the plants getting cold feet if there's a cold snap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 I have 3 tanks for plant all of similar size. One has 2x3ft lights and the others have 2x4ft lights. One with the 4ft lghts has heating pads under the tank and the other two are heated with emersed heaters. After about 9 months I can see very little difference. They all have CO2 diffusers because they all have fish, and they all grow plant well. There are no undergravel heaters in the Amazon. Keep it simple and enjoy. The reason I used heating pads was because that stand also contains a tank divided into six sections and it saved me buying six heaters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 When I had a planted tank I used aquadic clay that I got from a plant shop (Dyltons I think was the brand). I mixed it with a bit of gravel then put a couple of inches of gravel over top of it to hold it down. I never had to dose any other fertilisers and in the end removed the CO2 as well. I was pulling out a bucket of plants each week. Tank ran for two years with no problems, other than a short period of green water when I first set it up. Also had 4x4foot T8 fluro's on tank, and 2xfluval 204 filters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguinleo Posted December 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Thanks for the help. Any one else like to write their recommendation? Well, you still need a heater even if you have underground heating. And now, I am thinking whether I should get it or not. But they do say that it helps the gravel a bit by keeping it oxygenated and gives the plants "warm feet". Can you give me some help with the lights? And the kelvin rating? Thanks! :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 My 4ft tank has a heatpad under it. No heater in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilknieval69 Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 Ohk, This is how i would do it if i had $2000 ish to spend on a planted tank. I would use and under gravel heating cable with daltons aquatic mix on top, with a layer of sand on top of that. The plants will love the sand, and having the under ground heating will keep the sand from going anaerobic. I would paint the backround of the tank black. You already have the co2 injection so thats no worry. For lighting over a 300L tank i would use 2 150W metal halides with 8000 ish Kelvin bulbs. Filter i would use a 1200LPH canister. Aqua one CF1200's are pretty good, and at only $130 ish you cant go wrong :lol: Ferts wise, i would buy some PMDD off someone who makes it (i use Lukes (luke*) and it does wonders in my tank) or make your own. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quack Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 hey i think that evilknieval69 has it pretty well covered! thats what i would do any way oh and were do you get those under gravel heater? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 My tank that is heated with a heat pad has no other heating---what would be the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 where is everyone getting their heating pads from?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 If you have an undergravel filter a heatpad works sweet as there's water flow to draw the heat away. If you don't have an undergravel filter and want to grow plants then you can't have all your heating from a heatpad under the tank as the base of the tank will get too hot by the time the heat transfers through to the water. The gravel acts as a fairly good insulator. Not only will the plant roots get too hot but you'll risk breaking the bottom glass. It's common practice on planted tanks to have 5-10% of the heating from below with a normal heater providing 90-95%. I've used a thermostat to control both the undergravel heating and tank heater. The heater was set to max temp so it was on all the time and the thermostat controlled the power to it. On my current tank, I used 25mm poly under it so there's almost no temperature drop between the water and bottom of the gravel. Worst case the temperature is 3'C lower where the gravel is approx 200mm deep. I'm wishing I used about 5% undergravel heating though as there is not much flow in the gravel leading to the odd stale spot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 28, 2006 Report Share Posted December 28, 2006 I have a heatpad only, with 50mm of sand and JBL micronutrient ---no probs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 We made our own heat pad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 I had mine built at Argus in Christchurch and controlled by an electronic thermastat that also displays the temperature (it would be cheaper to use a bimetalic thermastat if you can get one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 Can you measure the temp at the bottom of the gravel just as the heater turns off. Would be interested to know the temp different between the water and bottom glass... I'd say you get away with it due to only 50mm depth of sand. If you had 200mm or more like many planted tanks you would have problems. The biggest issue comes with differing thickness of gravel creating different temperatures in different areas on the bottom glass. This adds extra stress to the glass and more risk of breakage. If the temperature difference is big enough the glass will break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguinleo Posted December 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 Thanks for the help guys. I think I got things nearly sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 If the reason people are heating the substrate is to create water circulation then that is what you should get and the heat should be transfered to the water. I agree you would not want to have too great a depth of media as it would act as an insulator. I still querry the advantage to plant growth as these plants do not have heated substrate in nature and so have developed to live well without that. I simply did it that way out of convenience, and although it works OK I do not think it has any advantage to plant growth, but then that is only one factor in many. I have other similar tanks not heated this way and with a far greater depth of similar media and the plants are doing better even in one case with less light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 i don't have a heated substrate in my 280l tank and all is fine (i'm pulling out a bucket of trimmings every week aswell) For lighting, i went for compact flouros installed over the hood along with an Aquarium Hobby Supplies (AHS) reflector. Compact flouros are the way to go!! Cram more light in in less space. Total lighting above my tank is 4 x 55W. Bit of heat in the hood is abated by a fan. The CF bulbs can be purchased in NZ, the AHS reflector can be brought in from overseas. i've battled various sorts of algae since i set up, but i'm getting the hang of the ferts levels. something i'm guessing every planted tank keeper has to go through...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 I think the heating may cause the media to get too hot for the plants, but I thought I would try the idea to see how it went. You are right about the depth of sand, it is only a thin layer and even. My community tank is landscaped and is of various depths and I think there could be big problems there. I will try to measure the temperature out of interest and if it is too hot I will wind the temperature back and add a heater to see how that goes. I still have doubts as to the usefullness of undergravel heaters for plant. It is a great idea on the tank above which is in six compartments and contains killies (no media, only java fern) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 That would be great - I'm interested in the effect the gravel has as an insulator... I think the biggest benefit of undergravel heating in planted tank is a very slow flow of water in the gravel due to the thermal currents. The idea is to add enough heating to create a flow that keeps the substrate fresh but not enough to wash the rich supply of nutrients out into the tank water. The only difference I've noticed in the past is tanks with undergravel heating do not get the gas bubbles forming in the substrate that often occur in non-undergravel heated tanks. If you put a rich substrate containing any trace of organic matter under the gravel to feed the plants it will rot if there is no flow. After many years of operation small organic particles seep into the gravel. These also rot if there is no minute flow to spread the nutrients to where the plant roots can use them. Well, they will rot anyway but the difference is hydrogen sulphide gas bubbles or not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 I have a digital thermometer hooked up at the moment with the probe at the bottom of the gravel. I do understand about anaerobic decomposition and how it will produces SO2, CH4, Methyl mercapten etc but I come back to my original statement that there are no undergravel heaters where these plants normally live and you would therefor expect them to have developed with the ability to do well in an anaerobic substrate at least from time to time, The same as they are periodically emersed or submersed. I think we sometimes get a bit carried away with science and forget that mother nature is a clever lady and has been getting it right for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 29, 2006 Report Share Posted December 29, 2006 Have checked 3 times so far. I set the thermometer for max,min,average but it keeps turning itself off. The heat pad is set to turn off at 24deg C (histeresis one degree)and the thermometer is reading 23.5 and 23.6 with an accuracy of 0.1. I will keep checking to see if I can get a highest figure, the element may not have turned on yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 I have been watching the temperature all day and the heatpad is ranging from 23 to 24 degrees and the thermometer from 22.5 to 23.6. The probe for the pad is in the water (with good circulation) and the probe for the thermometer is on the glass under the sand and above one of the coils. The thermometer is more accurate I think but it indicates to me that the temperature in the media is not excessive. That result surprises me and I would put it down to the thin sand layer and good water circulation. Will continue to measure tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 Maybe the heater is not coming on at all. Mine hardly ever come on in summer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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