jn

And now it all begins.. The inevitable debate regarding fish vs. fishless cycling Just to sum it up before it begins... both methods are reputed to work. Some believe in one.. others believe in the other. Fishless involves adding stuff to the tank to create a big ammonia spike so the nitrifying bacteria can grow without exposing any fish to the 'toxins', when the ammonia drops, if you've done it right, you supposedly have a full complement of bacteria, and you can fully stock your tank all in one go. Cycling with fish involves adding only a few fish at a time so the ammonia levels stay very low and the fish shouldn't be harmed. Once the levels stabilise, you slowly add more fish and repeat the waiting and adding fish until you're fully stocked. Cycling with fish has been done for ages, fishless cycling is a more recent trend. Personally, which ever way you choose, just do you homework, and test your water or keep an eye on your fish for any signs of stress !!

I have a 200L half barrel (bigger than the usual wine barrel halves) I have heaps of plants and a couple of fish. No filter. The nitrates go down to zero (and I had some cyanobacteria I think but not too bad) but since I don't have a filter I do regular water changes during the summer. Since it doesn't get aerated by a filter, I have it in a shady spot so it doesn't get too hot so the oxygen levels don't drop too low. I wouldn't have more than 3 in only 80L though without a filter. I only had 4 in my 200L, they like some room to swim.

Only just I'd say ... but then...I suppose when you think about it.. they do say slow sinking crumbles.. maybe as far as 'crumbles' go.. these one ARE slower than some

I read somewhere to dose every day for 3 days with 25% water changes before each new treatment (probably on here somewhere!). For white spot you'd have to keep repeating that.. put I presume you'd need a break in between? Hang on actually...I have a bottle of Blue Circle 'white spot cure' as opposed to wonder cure... I'll go check.... ok.. that one says 1 treatment should be sufficient!! (yeah right!) otherwise repeat every 3 days for a maximum of 3 treatments. Do not do more than 3 consecutive treatments unless a complete water change is done between 3rd and 4th treatment. Hope that helps. Good on you for spotting it quickly though!

I have used plastic bins for fish when I haven't had room. They work ok. the only unfortunate thing is that it makes it difficult to see how they're really looking cause you can't see them side on.. but you would know if they were behaving normally or scratching if nothing else. I will NEVER add another fish to my tank without quarantine again. Even now I'm sitting here watching a couple of mine flash!! They've been scratching off and on for months and months now and I've gone through a full course of treatment for flukes and a full course of treatment of wunder cure!!! I've gotten to the point where I think I'm never going to buy new fish again because I don't want to add any bugs to my tank!!!

If your flakes are big'ish.. i would deliberately sink some. They will probably sink slower than those sinking pellets.. plus it'll get him used to the flakes.. and then he will hopefully spot them at the surface and start coming up. I bought some Wardley's goldfish granules that were called 'slow sinking' but they sank like stones!!!

I'm not sure.. it was either a tank or some sort of fish...

Dixon.. I saw you bidding on something on TM. Dude .... I think you're out of control :oops: :lol: !! Get some help before its too late !! :bounce:

Feed less and adjust your lighting? I left my lights off for a couple days (I was away and the tank wasn't on a timer so I decided off for 2 days was better than on for 2 days) when I came home my algae was GONE!

Thanksfully she's in Christchurch.. Yummy water down here (while it lasts!)

If your tank is just starting to cycle you'll start seeing some nitrite at some point so keep testing for that too.

Is this so that they can be baked or fried? !! Sorry couldn't resist.. breaded bristlenoses.. (ok.. you say crumbed here..same thing!)

2 mg/l ....anywhere up to 10mg/l apparently. Frenchy here recommends 2mg/l for 3 days in a row with no w/c's in between. then change at 1 week and redose as above for maybe 3 weeks at your normal sort of temp. The lifecycle depends on the temperature. Eggs hatch more slowly when the temp is cooler so treatment takes longer.

I can vouch that WCMM are fine with prazi. Can't personally comment on borneos.

Scuba sam.. I can't explain the chemistry of BGA but evidence suggests that it thrives in environments with low Nitrates and possibly elevated phosphate. With the no nitrates, plant growth would slow (if you have some.. which I'm assuming you must being that nitrates sound so low).. and I'm guessing even normal algae growth would slow (it is afterall a plant!).. This probably leaves other nutrients unused for the BGA to go crazy on...This type of algae (bacteria actually) is able to fix nitrogen from the air, so when everything else runs out useable nitrate and stops soaking up the other nutrients, the BGA would be able to take advantage of the situation. (This is all some sort of assumption I've dreamed up based on what little facts I've read over time.. I don't think anyone has been able to prove how or why BGA gets a foothold!) I'd say add a fish or 2 or add some nitrate fertilser after you manage to get rid of the problem (so it doesn't come back)

simple mutation back to the dominant form?? my brother and his wife are brown-eyed - they have 2 brown eyed daughters and hazel eyed son, no she didn't visit the milkman.. when they performed their usual tests during her pregnancy with the son they found some abnormality which caused some concern, they then said everything was fine.. so perhaps the gene error they spotted resulted in the different eye color?

I never hear anyone mention velvet? Is it uncommon?

Very sad about your fish Condolonces to you and yours....

Except you can't get fluketabs in NZ anymore, I contacted brooklands who used to import them and they said definitely not allowed to import them anymore.

Do they fight?

Thanks Alan, Here's a couple links if you're curious. http://www.aquaponics.com/ http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/ Yup.. the setup is similar to hydroponics.. the plants are grown in gravel planter beds separate to the fish pool (hence the need for some space!). The water is pumped through to them by one of 2 methods, either by continuous circulation or by periodic flooding. The water then drains back to a sump, and gets pumped back into the pond. No hydroponic nutrients are used.. just fish water except for the occasional addition of chelated iron apparently. No extra filtration is required, the gravel beds and plants take care of that (I haven't seen a magical formula though for how to determine how many gravel beds you need or what rate to pump water through but I presume that could be tuned accordingly by adjusting stocking, planting and flow rates. Shouldn't be rocket science either, and the other half is handy electrically so could easily rig me up some relays and float switches to suit exactly what we'd need. There are ways to set up a system apparently to use a single pump but of course this depends on gravity which means you've got to have the right location for everything (and means the water flow directly back to the pond). I'd probably favour the sump anyway as it could collect any debris that might run out of the gravel beds (say after harvesting or putting in new plants) and ensure it didn't get into the pond. (easier to clean a sump than a pond!) I spent some time at Borders bookstore on the weekend (who needs a library!) and there's a whole heap of stuff that can be grown hydroponically including capsicums, cucumbers, lettuce, tomatoes, herbs and some flower type crops I have a 'domestic' sized glass house that I haven't set up yet so building beds for stuff like peppers and cucumbers at knee height would allow the water to drain and also make it easy to train them for climbing, shelves are typically built on a slant and water runs into one side and out the other, sometimes trickling down from one shelf to the next depending on the setup (how efficient is that!). More beds could be setup outside for stuff that doesn't need as much shelter such as lettuces and herbs. Some varieties of lettuce should do fine in the glasshouse in the winter, and probably some of the hardier herbs too. Of course I wont' be growing carrot or onions but I can still have a veggie patch! The magazine said that plants grown in this way do better than plants grown under a typically sterile hydroponic setup probably due to fewer chemicals and extra biological activity. Apparently the fish tend to be healthier than than in a confined aquaculture setting (perhaps due again to less use of chemicals and more natural conditions). Of course he would say that as he was promoting his book! But I can't see why it wouldn't work. When I water change my barrel pond and use the water on the plants.. so it's all the same. Just set up more intelligently and more efficiently and I can grow more AND have more fish? Win win situation if you ask me And if I have to add the odd bit of potassium or iron from time to time then so be it.. that stuff is pretty cheap.. cheaper than lettuce in the winter! And the other half.. who couldn't be any less interested in fish, who has resited my pleas for a giant ornamental pond, is keen on the veggie production and the more efficient use of water, is talking about where we could put a setup....so I'm gathering all the info I can before he changes his mind! :bounce: I agree with you, I wouldn't be sure about fancy goldfish outside in the winter either, I've seen veiltails do fine but wouldn't be sure about orandas. If I used a blue pool liner blackmoores would be easy to see so I could spot ones that needed culliong Of course they would need a shade sail to foil the birds! And I'm sure I could feed the fry culls to our chickens! (ick!) (Would blackmoores be more popular than shubunkins?) Anyway, even if I can't grow fish for eating it would still be worth it if I can sell some fish stocks and/or some extra herbs and veggies to workmates etc!) and supply myself in the process!

If you wait I think the filter bacteria in the tank with no fish to support it will start to die. (Or did I misunderstand and you put some new wool in your old filter in preparation for moving the fish?)

When I first got my WCMM I had to hide in the other room to be able to watch them swimming. They were extremely timid like they'd had very little contact. They also stayed right at the top of the tank. So much so that I thought the piece of driftwood I had in there that was making a bit of a division visually into top/bottom layers had to be taken out. After I took the drift wood out it was still a couple of weekd before they felt safe venturing closer to the middle of the tank! Odd lieele things. Now they're everywhere.. but it took quite a while. If they're not gasping for air and look health other than behaving a little stunned, maybe they'll get over it?

Ok.. now those are the things I knew someone here would be able to clue me into. Thanks Alan. Ok.. so what are other options? What else could I put in a para swimming pool sized pond that would have some use? What do people buy as bait? Do blackmoors wholesale for more than goldfish? (and if so is it just because they are harder to breed 'well' than goldfish are?) What about barbs? Is there much of a market for them? Maybe I could breed them over the summer like Caryl does and move the breeder stock indoors for the winter. Any other ideas? I'm quite open to suggestions I just need something to produce enough nitrates to feed some plants that will tolerate the cold and hopefully earn me something in return (or at least pay for themselves including my running costs!)

That would be great. I'm not looking at selling them. I'd even be happy to buy from a hatchery and grow them on to eating size. I'd get a permit if required provided it was affordable. (Otherwise I'll just stick to an ornamental pond if need be and sell any overstock of the likes of goldfish or WCMM)