lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 But it doesn't make a bit of difference in terms of water quality. Sure it's better for keeping chemistry like calcium, magnesium etc stable. But that's it. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 But it doesn't make a bit of difference in terms of water quality. Sure it's better for keeping chemistry like calcium, magnesium etc stable. But that's it. Layton So if it doesn't make any difference in water quality, is better at buffering Ca, Mg, etc, and provides excellent food for your tank, wheres the argument??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I was talking about additional water volume alone, not specifically in the context of a refugium. My point is, the extra water volume does not cancel out the added load from the refugium life. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tel Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 My point is, the extra water volume does not cancel out the added load from the refugium life. Layton seems to be a very wide ranging statement. possibly a refugium that has a lessor life population than the display would do exeactly the opposite,ie; it adds water volume with a net less load so pulls down the average load for the 2 combined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 It's not a wide ranging statement at all. It's exactly how it works. What you've said doesn't make sense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tel Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 a box of water with 4 big fish (your display) they do 4 poos a day per box. add a box of water with 1 big fish ( this fish is actually all your pods but iv'e simplified things somewhat) and it does 1 poo per day. the combined poos per litre are less when you add the 2 boxes together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Q - If you don't feed the refugium. The pods survive on any waste from the tank. Turning the waste into a pod factory. The fish in the display eat the pods. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that another form of nutrient control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KP Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 :lol: :lol: :lol: brilliant!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 give up Pies, you can't win against Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Q - If you don't feed the refugium. The pods survive on any waste from the tank. Turning the waste into a pod factory. The fish in the display eat the pods. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that another form of nutrient control? Exactly. This is the important point that Layton has missed thus far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 give up Pies, you can't win against Layton You can, and from I see often do, you just convince Layton himself Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 The assumption that Layton is making is that the skimmer is working at 100% therefore the added load (volume or bio) doesn't get removed. This is complete crap, just about all of us have skimmers that are rated for far more water than our tank sizes. The added load (if there is even any, which I'm not sure there even is) would just mean ours skimmers are working at say 60% instead of 55%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 The assumption that Layton is making is that the skimmer is working at 100% therefore the added load (volume or bio) doesn't get removed. This is complete crap, just about all of us have skimmers that are rated for far more water than our tank sizes. The added load (if there is even any, which I'm not sure there even is) would just mean ours skimmers are working at say 60% instead of 55%. I have not made that assumption at all. Quite the opposite. I've said the skimmer output is proportional to the concentration of waste in the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 just about all of us have skimmers that are rated for far more water than our tank sizes Most skimmers in terms on what volume they will do are over stated by the manufacture. Who knows how they rate the skimmers. Deltec for example give you a high load and low load specs on what the skimmer will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 If the skimmer is running at 50% capacity (because it is over rated for the tank) to remove 100% of the waste, and you then increase the load by 5% the skimmer is going to run at 55% to remove 100% of the waste with the new load, there is only a nutirant build up if the skimmer was running at 100% capacity to start with. Actually the 55% prob isn't quite right due to some complicated mathematics, the law of diminishing returns, and FBT tax, but you get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 But there is a increase in the steady state waste concentration in your example. It increases by 5%. The skimmer output can only increase 5% if the waste concentration has also increased by 5%. Which means that there has been a build up of waste. Remember the waste the skimmer pulls out is proportional to the concentration of the waste in the water. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 But there is a increase in the steady state waste concentration in your example. It increases by 5%. The skimmer output can only increase 5% if the waste concentration has also increased by 5%. Which means that there has been a build up of waste. Remember the waste the skimmer pulls out is proportional to the concentration of the waste in the water. Layton But this only holds true if the skimmer is already working at maximum capacity, either in the amount of water it can process or the concentration of waste it can remove. If you have a skimmer able to handle 1000l but is in a 500l system, increasing the volume to 600l is not going suddenly give you a nutirant build up, it just means the skimmer is going to be running at 60% capacity instead of 50%. The amount of waste the skimmer pulls out is proportional to the volume of waste in the system, not the concentration. The concentration might affect the efficiency, but this only matters when your talking about extremes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 But this only holds true if the skimmer is already working at maximum capacity, either in the amount of water it can process or the concentration of waste it can remove. If you have a skimmer able to handle 1000l but is in a 500l system, increasing the volume to 600l is not going suddenly give you a nutirant build up, it just means the skimmer is going to be running at 60% capacity instead of 50%. No it doesn't. Infact if the skimmer is working at 100% capacity it changes all this. Also the fact that your jumping around between increasing volume, and increasing nutrient load in your arguments in the last couple of posts isn't helping either. The amount of waste the skimmer pulls out is proportional to the volume of waste in the system, not the concentration. The concentration might affect the efficiency, but this only matters when your talking about extremes Wrong wrong wrong. This is what you don't understand. The output of the skimmer is directly related to the concentration of waste, it's independent of the volume of waste, so long as it's not running at 100% capacity. Look at this spread sheet. http://www.nzreefs.com/images/System%20Volume.xls And just looking at System 1 at an input of 1000 /hr, in steady state (equilibrium) you have the skimmer removing 1000 grams an hour, and the steady state concentration of waste at 2. Now increase the waste input by 5%, like you suggested a couple of posts ago, to 1050 /hr, you'll then see that the steady state skimmer output does increase 5% to 1050, and the steady state concentration of waste also rises by 5% to 2.1, which means there has been a buildup of waste in the system. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Think about it from the point of view of the skimmer. What "knowledge" does it have about the system? All it knows is the concentration of waste in the water, and how much water is flowing through it per hour. It DOESN'T know the volume of water in the system, or the volume of waste in the system. There is no way the skimmer can change it's output based on the volume of water in the system, or the volume of waste in the system. All it has to change it's output on, is the amount of water flowing through it every hour, and the concentration of the waste in the water flowing through it. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I understand what you are saying but my point is if the skimmer has the capacity to remove the waste it will do so, it doesn't matter if the concentration changes, it's only when you reach the point that the skimmer doesn't have the capacity to remove the waste that it will build up. Skimmers don't only remove waste at certain concentrations, sure the efficiency of the skimmer might change but as long as the capacity is there to do the job it will do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 nope you still don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 You are surpassing yourself Layton, this time you are arguing, you against the rest, in two different threads, all at the same time! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I dont believe your THEORY Layton, after all that is all it is. You are NOT a scientist and until you can provide a full lecture paper provong your points i feel you are wrong. The last statement about skimmer percentages from Suphew is a perfect example and I believe this theory also. Onbce again, to say that having bigger water voume isnt beneficial is laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Pies wrote: I want a place where things can survive away from the predation in my display So do I So should I take that huge bristle star out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I dont believe your THEORY Layton, after all that is all it is. You are NOT a scientist and until you can provide a full lecture paper provong your points i feel you are wrong. No, i'm not a scientist, i'm an engineer, (engineering = applied science) and i've studied and anyalysed these type of systems (plus a lot more advanced ones) for the last 4 years. It's not a theory at all. It's how it works. The last statement about skimmer percentages from Suphew is a perfect example and I believe this theory also. He's wrong. Look at the spreadsheet and follow it logically you'll see why. Onbce again, to say that having bigger water voume isnt beneficial is laughable. I didn't say that, all I said that it doesn't counter added waste. I'll step you through where you're going wrong tonight when I have time. Hopefully then, you'll understand it. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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