PENEJANE Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Hi again guys. I am looking at making some changes to my cold water marine and was wondering how I could make some of my own rocks as I want to make corner pieces and hope that evenutally some of the crawly things will make it their homes like barnicles and other things to live on. I want to know how to sculpture it for little bumps and mounds and some hollows like you would expect in most natural rockpools. I thought of using the poly stuff and coating it and sticking it to a piece of glass to make it stay down but I don't know if this would work well in a marine tank. Any ideas appreciated. Cheers PeneJane :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Feelers made some rock, if he doesn't chip in you could drop him a pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 cheers thanks for that :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostface Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 you could make a mould of the surface of some real rock, then apply it to any shape artificial rock you make. if you just take a mould of the surface and not the shape, and backed it with wax paper, you wouldnt use much gunk... i used to flat with an artist who whould make moulds from latex, but i guess you could use silicon or similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 I have been told fiberglass or Styrofoam. Would this be ok to make the rock formations with, with out harming the things I will have in it or the water? I am hoping to have 3-4 triplefins, number of crabs, starfish, glass shrimps and anemones(sp) and other little critters that I can find. Could they have this in their tank fine or will it cause harm? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEKA Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Have a look in the DIY there are some threads running there at the moment which should help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 ok so if I was to make up a cement and sand mix over some poly sheets would the poly be ok in a salt tank? Which cement would be the better one to use to stop anything leaching back into the tank? Poly seems to be the only thing that I can think of that is handy and always available and the best way to form what I am after. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 I think I have a thread called "diy base rock " but I cant find it because the search things been down. I would go with the way the salties make rock - it will be very porous and have far more surface area than other things you could make, it will sink, and you can choose how you want it to look. However I dont know as much about fresh as salt - I dont know if the extra bacterial activity would be a good thing (I'm geussing it is?), and I suppose the rocks will have that coral rock look that all the salties go for. Whoa just found my thread....... http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/3-vt93 ... c&start=30 Here you go. There are some links that you might find useful - one dude who made amazing moulds that looked like corals ect. Check on near the bottom of that page of the thread. I will soon be getting my stuff back from the sea - so you can see how it went! It's cheap, and you can really make it how you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Cheers for that Feelers. I shall go and read up on that now. This rock is to be used in my cold water marine tank so yes it is saltwater Cheers again :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 This rock is to be used in my cold water marine tank so yes it is saltwater Ok you definately want to go with the porous rock stuff- it's part of the main filtration method for marines. Also people asked whether oystershell had phosphates in it - it doesnt. I know a reefer who has undetectable phosphates and he has oystercrete rocks. Although I used them because they were cheap. Basicially you need sand , cement and water for the simple one. You pour the mix into a sand filled box and leave it for a few days, then cure it for a while. Heres a vidoe of whats involved. http://www.garf.org/MPegs/AragocreteArch.mpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 ok now this is getting confusing. For the mix I use: Sand cement water I then mix this up and place little bits into a poly box (or large plastic tub what ever will hold the extra sand) to form one large piece and leave it to set in there? From the pictures I have seen I can't see how they manage to get pieces looking like that. I thought it was hand molded. Proving to be a very difficult task. I would have to get on to this soon as I have read that it takes 6-8 weeks of sitting in a kiddies pool of water to remove the excess pH or something? http://www.captivereefing.com/showthread.php?t=702 If you scroll down a bit you will se the pictures that I am talking about. Its hard for me to draw (even in the paint program) what effect I am trying to get. Is there any way of speeding this up so I can put into a tank sooner than 6-8 weeks? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... t=hex+tank Is a cool rock pool look that you might like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 Ok another question. I have found a way to do my rock wall for my tank. Once I have put the cement mix on the poly I leave it for 24hrs then put it into water (or add water to the tank) and cure it for how long? Some sites have said 5 weeks while others have said 3 months. Since this is cement on poly and not solid chunks of cement would this still take the same legenth of time? Also I know this may be impossible but thought I would ask. Is there any chance of shipping anemones(sp)? Reason I ask is that the only ones I can find local down here seem to be a muddy green colour so nothing special lol. Thought that if it was possible to ship them then I could get some of the nicer colours from around NZ to put into this tank. Cheers PeneJane :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 myself I would aviod using the poly, two reasons firstly as feelers says the rock makes up a lot of the filter in the tank (turns N03 in nitogen gas) N03 being very bad for anenomies. secondly alot of the critters you'll end up with are going to want to dig themselves holes into your rock. anenomies can be shipped i had one arrive from auck just a couple of weeks ago. remember most anenomies in tanks are tropical so have been shipped over seas prob 20 hours or more in bags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 One of the main reasons for the poly is that in the end it won't weigh as much as it would if it was made totaly out of cement/sand/shells or what ever you use. The tank isn't very deep so I don't have much space but it is tall which is why I have opted for the "looking through the side of a rock pool" scene. I am now thinking of using the cement and plastering together a pile of living rock to create my wall (less curing time) but it still won't give me the affect I am after. As for shipping anemones I was thinking if someone was able to go down to the beach (their local) and see if there were any in some rock pools. I know that tropical anemones are no good because they do require heat to survive. Also if I was to do the poly rock stuff (with a few extra coats to allow for the digging critters) could I then place this into the tank to cure with a filter running or something to help? Because emptying and filling a 200+ ltr tank is going to take some time if done by buckets! haha Cheers for the support guys :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 Putting a layer of liverock along the back would probably be the ideal way, like you said. But will be kinda pricy, YOu'd probably need something like 30 kilos I'd guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 well unlike most pet stores our one doesn't sell rock by the kg. Its in pieces ranging from $10-$30 a piece. This is for the dry stuff that you can get as it doesn't come from out of their tanks. The live rock that I would use would be from the actual rock pools itself. Using that cement mix to plaster pieces together would I still need to let it cure for months or would I be pretty right since it would be such a small amount? Anyone have anything to sell that would be suitable for a cold water marine please pm me. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 rock for local rock pools isn't "live rock" as we use in marine tanks. it doesn't have the pores for the correct bacteria to live in. you only have two options, buy proper live rock, or make it and cure it as per feeler posting, sorry for the bad news, you have to either spend the $ or do the time if it was as easy as collecting rock from the beach we would all be doing it. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 http://www.athiel.com/lib3/arago.htm This site here shows you how to make the rock with simple instructions as well as shapes and what mix they use. They also state 12 hrs in white vinegar, rinse in fresh water before using them. Does this 12 hrs in the vinegar break down the lime that upsets the pH? Does that mean that after 12 hrs and one heck of a good rinse you are safe to place them into your tank to use? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jude Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 That's an interesting site and the rock is very similar to hypertufa except it doesn't use peat and it seems to have a special sand. Its certainly similar in the way it uses molds. Is coralline sand available in NZ or will any sand do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 That aragonite stuff is basicially white sand (coral sand) mixed with white cement mix. PJ there should be no added lime in the cement mix. If you want to know where to get the right cement I found a place up here in Chch. $50 for one bag, and thats enough to make a ton of rock. Its expensive (for cement) because it comes from Holland. I think the vinegar is just to get rid of excess crud. I'm not sure about that overnight curing thing - I cant see how that would work. I think you could try it and then put a piece in a bucket and se if anything leeches, but I doubt that it could be done in such a small time, as people I've read about do this all still have to go through the curing process. I think your best bet - is to use the mix like the link you posted - but make small slabs that are easy to carry ect and piece together to make your rock wall. That way they can be easily moved and put in a river, the sea or the bath ect to cure, but give the appearance of a solid wall when assembled. And it will become real "live rock" too, so it will do the biological filtration your tank will need (that most coldwater tanks are lacking). Which as someone said will be important for your anemones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jude Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Just out of interest, whats the difference between that cement and the stuff available everywhere? And where would you get the white coral sand from? Cheers Jude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 there is no way I can afford to ship a bag of cement down from chch lol. Do you know what the product is called? like what brand name so I can see if I can find it down here. As for putting the stuff into a river or sea its basicly impracticle for me as I have no idea where I can put it with out it going missing or thanks to petrol prices be able to afford to go out there in the first place to put them in let alone to go and get them back lol With my current marine tank I don't have any "live rock" as such. I just have rock that I got from the rock pools that was covered in things and put them into the tank. The sand came from the same place. Its been going for a while now and so far no probs. With these rocks that I currently have could I use them to help seed my new rocks once I make them? I will also be keeping the sand and putting it into the new tank. This is proving to be more difficult than setting up a freshwater! lol Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 You can use any sand you want - coral sand is probably quite expensive relativly. When it comes to the cement - you can use nromal cement mix too, however be warned the curing time might be longer and there's all sorts of crud in many types of cement. (remember not concrete mix) If you can look for Portland type II white cement. You want cement that contains no added lime. About the curing - you are gonna have to cure it somehow. Are there no rock pools you can put it in? There must be a river or something somewhere around. Chuck all the stuff in an old washing basket or friut tray. In the bath - or in the toilet cistern. :lol: I think you will be safe dropping it in a deep rock pool. Your best best is probably barrels that overflow down into the drain. You have to cure it! Otherwise you'll end up with cementy crap in your tank that will probably kill everything, and a big line of cement scum on the glass. Seeding it's not too important - its just that if you put it in the sea it will cure and become live at the same time, and bring some biodiversity too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted May 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 ok if I manage to get this into a large rockpool how long would I need to leave it there? I have read that I can cure it in the tank also (just can't add anything else) What would I need to do this? Like would I need to put any form of filtration in there or would I just have to do daily water changes? Trying to find out who we know who is close to the beach that we can take this stuff to and keep an eye on for us. Most places around here are tourist spots which is the reason for why I am not that keen on taking it out to the beach. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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