the ''tingle''

[puttputt]

I've read articles both for and against ground probes. Another one of those reef questions that there doesn't seem to be definitive answers for. One strong argument for is that residual currents can cause lateral line disease in your fish.

I read that you could get Titanium spokes through bike shops but this seems to be out dated now carbon fibre types wheels are used on top end bikes.

I got mine through a specialized Tig welder (Titanium is welded in things like marine fittings and specialised refrigeration). I can source more if anyone interested but its not cheap - around $20 for 1 - 900mm tig rod.

[cookie extreme]

Ground probing is not good for the tank.

When there is a slight elec. fault such as proven by tingling, normally the tank doesnt get earthed unless you are working on it.

if you run a probe continuosly there is a chance you are CONTINUALLY

grounding all the tank inhabitants also.

There will be potential differences between one end of their body and the other.

Its probably usually too small too affect them, but if something does fault whilst a ground probe is attached there is a chance they could be fried.

I get fairly heavy tingles if i work on the tank/sump with no shoes on.

disagree

it can not be good for corals and fish (white spot due to stress?). if you get heavy tingles, something is wrong. while i was in the maldives they did tests on electrical currents regarding coral growth but i never got to see the results.

[wasp]

What he means is that if there is no connection, then there is no current, no harm being done.

Only if you creat a connection, either by an earth, or yourself as an earth, can the current from the leaking appliance flow, possibly doing damage.

Or at least I THINK that's what he means.

[Warren]

Ground probing is not good for the tank.

When there is a slight elec. fault such as proven by tingling, normally the tank doesnt get earthed unless you are working on it.

if you run a probe continuosly there is a chance you are CONTINUALLY

grounding all the tank inhabitants also.

There will be potential differences between one end of their body and the other.

Its probably usually too small too affect them, but if something does fault whilst a ground probe is attached there is a chance they could be fried.

I get fairly heavy tingles if i work on the tank/sump with no shoes on.

the current goes straight through me into the ground.

I hate it, but still wont use a ground probe OR RCDs.

Too easy to fault and kill power to the tank.

I know I'd rather have the current go to a ground probe if there was a fault. The last thing I'd want is to find out there was a fault by putting my hand in the tank and getting a major zap.

I've had many good sized electric shocks but they would be nothing compared to a wet hand in tank shock... Even with a RCD installed, you still get a pretty good-sized zap before it trips. The response time on some is as long as 0.3 secs, an eternity if you're on the receiving end.

At least if the RCD trips due to an earth probe, you are safe from a life-threatening electric shock.

If you are worried about long-term effects of the earth probe, why not just use it when you want to do tank maintenance so the tingle doesn't annoy you?

[slappers]

why not just fix the problem cant be to hard

[Warren]

Sometimes you can't fix capacitive coupling but yes, trying to find the problem and fixing it would be a much better solution.

[Ira]

Actually, slappers...It's not exactly something you can totally eliminate. It's not due to a fault anywhere. It's due to the natural properties of electricity flowing through a wire. It creates a magnetic field around the wire which then creates an electrical flow through any conductive materials within the field. (Warren will probably correct the specifics but that's the basics) The only way to do it would be big heavy magnetic shielding around any equipment and wires in the tank. Too impractical.

[Tanksman]

Is there a possiblity of using excessive power when you can feel the tingling - I have had a spate of irregular power bills - 2 in the last 12 months at least $200 over normal. I can feel tingling occasionally and it is especially in my sump also.

[lduncan]

... after reading that low voltage current can depress coral growth.

I've seen the exact opposite. People use electrical current passing through a metal grid sunk in the ocean as a reef restoration method. It significantly increases settling and growth rates. I think it's referred to as bioaggregation.

[slappers]

Actually, slappers...It's not exactly something you can totally eliminate.

enlighten me

HMMM if this is the case shouldn't all tanks be doing this ???

i don't get any shocks or tings

[ghostface]

I've seen the exact opposite. People use electrical current passing through a metal grid sunk in the ocean as a reef restoration method. It significantly increases settling and growth rates. I think it's referred to as bioaggregation.

so whos volunteering to give it a go in their tank? pics please

[Fay]

HMMM if this is the case shouldn't all tanks be doing this ???

i don't get any shocks or tings

Me neither since I replaced the faulty heater.

My son had this problem in a house he was renting we put it down to a fault with the house wiring, he has since shifted will ask if it has gone with the new house

[lduncan]

so whos volunteering to give it a go in their tank? pics please

Here some info:

http://www.globalcoral.org/Reef%20Resto ... roject.htm

http://coral.aoml.noaa.gov/pipermail/co ... 01787.html

http://www.reefhq.com.au/bts/electro.html

Layton

[Warren]

This requires a DC current to make it work. The current that leaks into your tank from the mains is AC, so no good...

[lduncan]

Yip, but the point was that current doesn't stunt the growth of corals, as someone suggested.

I'm not saying that this leakage current is good, because it definitely is not. But there isn't much you can do about capacitive coupling, when that's the source, of these tingles.

Layton

[slappers]

but why do some tank have it and others don't

alot of us are using the same components

[lduncan]

Many possible reasons. Depends whether it is cause by: partial equipment failure, or a design flaw in the equipment.

Also depends on your situation, whether or how well you are grounded when you have your hands in the tank.

I get shocked when I work on the tank with bare feet on concrete floor, but not when I have shoes on, or when I'm standing on a plastic stool. The current need a return path, the better the return path, the more current flows, and the more of a "tingle" you get.

Layton

[cracker]

I would also say that the likes of us with large tanks and lots of equipment will always have some leakage.

Im running just over 2KW with everything on.

After all the stuff IS plonked underwater.

Of course there will be some leakage. I agree with Ira when he talks about magnetic fields.

Electricity and magnetism are the same thing and just a coil of wire somewhere makes a magnetic field.

Tank heaters are complete electric coils for exmaple.

I believe every tank will have some leakage, just the small ones wont show as much.

[cracker]

And wasp....yip, thats what I meant.

[puttputt]

I think your right Cracker, fair amount of equipment in mine as well - 9 pumps - and then there is all the other equipment....

[Ira]

but why do some tank have it and others don't

alot of us are using the same components

All tanks will have it. The strength depends on how many devices are in the tank, what type they are are factors in the strength. Things like how well grounded you are standing in front of the tank, if you happen to have any scratches or similar or thin skin that is the factor in whether you feel it or not. My tank I normally don't feel anything. If I've happened to have scratched my finger recently it's noticable. Don't think you have it? Try attacking your hand with a cheese grater and put it in the water.

[slappers]

yes i have notice this

but at the moment mine tank all sweet

[suphew]

couple of things,

I think (its been a while since I studied this stuff) that it is inductance not capactiance you are talking about, basically capitance is energy between two seperated conductors one positive one negative. Inductance is electrical energy transfered usually (?) via a magnetic field.

The other thing I wanted to say is DONT STUFF ROUND WITH THIS STUFF!!! It could be just inductance or it could be something broken that is about to kill you, without buying an RCD and/or testing every thing you will never know until it kills you. You are giving the impression that the tingle is normal and OK. this MIGHT be the case but it MIGHT not, as responsible reef keepers we should be advising everyone to install an RCD and make sure they are safe not tell them its just a tingle dont worry about it. Spending $10k on a tank then dieing because you are too tight to spend $90 on an RCD would have to about be the stupidest thing Ive ever heard of

[slappers]

[Warren]

It's capacitance.

Mutual coupling between inductors requires two inductors and in this case the inductance of any device in the tank is tiny and the inductance of the tank is pretty much non existant.

On the other hand, the capacitance from the conductors inside the devices to the water is many times more significant. Think of the conductors in the devices as one plate of the capacitor and the water the other. When you apply an AC voltage to the devices it capacitively couples to the water...

I'm an engineer and I breath this stuff almost every day, trust me.