Sad looking tank

[lduncan]

How much should I need to raise alk from what it is now, 5.4 to about 8? Based on the initial dose, would seem I'd need at least another 400 to 500 grams?

Well in a static system you'd need around 150 grams, but obviously the demand for alk is not balanced with calcium, so the reactor can not supply it.

So you've really just got to keep ramping up the dosing, until it meets demand.

I was adding over 100 grams every couple of days at one point in order to keep up.

Layton

[chimera]

Crap, looks like I'll have to buy a sack of the stuff

Just tested, kH 5.2, Mg 1050, Ca 380. I know Mg was low so am slowly dosing to increase it. Ca was 480 on Wednesday last week though - only 5 days later and it drops 100? I am still mucking around with the Calcium reactor to get it dosing better (since CO2 ran out) Will test pH out of reactor to see what thats at. I just up'd the CO2 bubble rate though. Is it worth drip feeding some Kalk overnight or just let reactor do it?

[lduncan]

Crap, looks like I'll have to buy a sack of the stuff

Just tested, kH 5.2, Mg 1050, Ca 380. I know Mg was low so am slowly dosing to increase it. Ca was 480 on Wednesday last week though - only 5 days later and it drops 100? I am still mucking around with the Calcium reactor to get it dosing better (since CO2 ran out) Will test pH out of reactor to see what thats at. I just up'd the CO2 bubble rate though. Is it worth drip feeding some Kalk overnight or just let reactor do it?

Low mag may be dragging the calcium down faster than normal.

Seen as calcium is a little lower than what most people run it at (not exactly a bad level though), you can add kalk to try and bump it up along with alk.

[wasp]

Mg 1050

This will absolutely not help.

The way it works is the calcium and alkalinity in your water are constantly trying to precipitate each other out. But magnesium performs a function that slows / prevents this. If Magnesium is low, calcium and alkalinity can be near impossible to maintain at high enough levels, they will keep dropping like a stone.

Try to maintain magnesium in the safe range, which is higher than 1250 and lower than 1400. I suspect you may find your other problems will go away, but you will still have to get calcium and alkalinity in the right balance to each other as it sounds like at the moment they are out.

BTW if you want some cheap magnesium chloride it can be bought for $14.00 for a 25 KG sack at Anchormart, Albany, behind the Speights building. It's probably not totally pure however I've used plenty of it with no ill effects at all.

[Sharkey]

mmm Mg Thought so. Had the same problem not so long ago. You could get Mg chips for your calcium reactor thats what they do overseas. It would take a little bit of playing around to find the balance but would be almost care free afterwards for awhile at least. When you get the Mg up your problems should go away. I would still double check the test kit just for piece of mind

Ps want to read a real good actical with some simple very good help http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

[Drifty]

just got some mag chloride from medchem (same place cracker gets it from) in mount albert. 25kg cost $123. They are more than happy to sell to any reefers who want it

[cookie extreme]

You could get Mg chips for your calcium reactor

thats what i did! will help to keep Mg at around 1200, Ca at 370 (can't get it any higher) which is fine and Kh at 7 (never higher, also fine esp. with zeovit)

I was adding over 100 grams every couple of days at one point in order to keep up.

if you have to add that much just to keep up then something is very wrong. (or you have way to many stone corals growing at huge rates )

seems to me that you adding a "painkiller" instead of finding out where the problem is. otherwise all of us would have to add the same quantities as you do. but we are not! also be careful with raising it to quickly with zeovit (or zeovit gets the blame again) also Kalkwasser should not be used with zeovit as you want to remove phospates and not percipitate them.

are you corals growing well?

[lduncan]

if you have to add that much just to keep up then something is very wrong. (or you have way to many stone corals growing at huge rates )

seems to me that you adding a "painkiller" instead of finding out where the problem is. otherwise all of us would have to add the same quantities as you do. but we are not!

Not exactly. Nothing is "wrong" in that there is nothing you can fix directly. Corals aren't the ones using all this alkalinity, if they were, then calcium would drop in proportion.

Layton

[cookie extreme]

Not exactly. Nothing is "wrong" in that there is nothing you can fix directly. Corals aren't the ones using all this alkalinity, if they were, then calcium would drop in proportion.

come again? if nothing is "wrong" then why add so much sodium bicarbonate? i would say that something is wrong if the KH drops so fast in such a short time considering Chim has already added quite a bit.

if thats the case you would have to test nearly every day to prevent the tank from collapsing! if you call that nothing is "wrong" what would you call wrong. also you trying to fix it directly with adding baking soda. so instead of chucking more and more in one should find a solution to the problem and not a quick fix that has to be repeated constantly resulting in massive swings (another bad thing) in KH.

one of the reefer on this side did the same thing (he is from dunedin) and ended up with a KH of 20 and very little calcium. all i say is be careful adding heaps. the last thing you want is a KH of 8 and dead and/or dying corals.

[chimera]

I already have (had?) Mg chips in reactor. Wouldnt be surprised if they're all depleted now though as from first glance i can only see Ca chips in there. I've been manually adding Mg though, about 1/2 a cup at a time then testing. Since I had to go on holiday I havent added much yet (probably 1 1/2 cups total)

[lduncan]

It's bacteria which are using this alkalinity. They need carbon, and that's the source which is available.

So how do you correct this "problem", you can't. You have to wait untill the bacteria have done the job that they are clearly doing, as calcium levels are fine.

Only time solves this. You have no choice but to add baking soda in the mean time.

Layton

[cookie extreme]

so why would you have a bacteria problem? what use are they if what they cosume is carbon in form of KH? why don't have people the same problem? and it is a problem due to the fact that your reef is very unstable? does one speed up the problem by adding BS and encourage the bacteria population to explode?

chim you may have to add more mag chips to your reactor then the instruction says, i have over 20% in mine.

[wasp]

Here we go again - another Layton versus somebody thread.

Layton what Cookie said is correct, and the advise you gave to Chimera is wrong. Just let Chimera fix his tank as per advise everybody else has given, which will work.

No need to doggedly defend your position, that's not really what this whole thing is about.

[lduncan]

So how is he to fix the problem of his KH dropping much faster than calcium? Is he meant to stop add sodium bicarbonate?

What's causing the KH to drop? How do you fix it?

Layton

[cookie extreme]

very good question Layton!

hi chim,

get your reactor back on track with effluent coming out at 50-55 KH. this should also bring the calcium down a bit. make sure you got enough mag chips in the calcium reactor to raise your mag a bit. also if you can disconnect your fuge for a day or two and see if the result is the same (KH and PH) in both systems! is your PH stable at the moment or is it swinging as well? you not using any other acids around the tank in any form (building etc?) that may end up via skimmer or other in your tank?

[JoeBlog]

I can't recall the specifics of my reactor's instructions (Korallin C3001, possibly the same as Chim), but I thought it stated something about getting your levels set to where you want them and then set the reactor to hold it there.

You others use the reactor to "adjust" your CA and ALK levels?

[Sharkey]

Holy shivers looking a bit closer at this one. A DKH of 5.2 is 1.9 Meq/l boy that is low and a reading of Ca of 380 is on the low side but ok. If it was me I would do a larger water change. And still double check your test kit this dosnt look right?"Ca was at 480 a week ago" it would be very hard to keep your Calcium that high without dropping your Alk That would have screwed your alk something strange going on here. If it was me I would do a 50% water change I use NSW and get the Mg on target if thats not in target it will screw your Ca and Alk then get the Ca and Alk into the right range then take all measurments wait three days retest then you will be able to work out what you systeem uses daily just dived the change in Ca ALk by 3 and work out a dosing system by useing a formulation like this below for alk and calcium it depends on which option you pick. I really dont now alot about zeovit but if you use it then they recommend no Kalwasser so probley a calcium chloride based additive? Cookie ?

Baking Soda

To raise 50 gallons of tank water by 1 meq/L will require about 16 grams of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate; sodium hydrogencarbonate). Since a level teaspoon of baking soda weighs just under 6 grams, then 1 teaspoon will raise the alkalinity in that 50 gallons by ~0.4 meq/L (~1 dKH).

PS Remember what dosnt kill us (or the fish)Makes us stronger

[Pies]

You others use the reactor to "adjust" your CA and ALK levels?

Yes. I have the Korrilin 4001 I think. I adjust the reactor to increase or decrease ALK in the tank, based on a table I got off RC.

Pie

[JoeBlog]

Yes. I have the Korrilin 4001 I think. I adjust the reactor to increase or decrease ALK in the tank, based on a table I got off RC.

Pie

Interesting. You wouldn't still happen to have a copy of that table would you. If so, could you PM or e-mail me a copy? I would like to give it a try.

Cheers,

Steve

[wasp]

Me too, I'd like to see it.

[wasp]

So how is he to fix the problem of his KH dropping much faster than calcium? Is he meant to stop add sodium bicarbonate?

What's causing the KH to drop? How do you fix it?

Layton

KH dropping faster than calcium? Not sure you understand what he has been saying.

Ca was 480 on Wednesday last week though - only 5 days later and it drops 100?

Please remember that a drop of 100 in calcium will drop alkalinity proportionately much more.

At this stage I would recommend a conventional approach to fixing the problem, as everybody else has suggested, and put your baking soda eating bacteria very much in the wild card basket.

[lduncan]

Well if alkalinity wasn't dropping faster than calcium, how did he get in the situation where Alk was 4 and Calcium was 480 in the first place?

[wasp]

Dunno, could be many things. However from what he has stated calcium is dropping like a stone, and of course

As Mg is low, this is the obvious place to start.

However I can understand you will have trouble learning anything from me, perhaps it will be better if someone else explains why alkalinity can appear to drop proportionately much greater than calcium. Here it is -

Quote "One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used."

Hope this helps

[chimera]

get your reactor back on track with effluent coming out at 50-55 KH.

will do. i thought the idea was to test pH coming out and get it around 6.7 or so?

make sure you got enough mag chips in the calcium reactor to raise your mag a bit.

will do also, as i said earlier i think all Mg chips have been depleted so will get some more shortly. I am adding magnesium separately at the moment to compensate (not chips, its more like 'wet sand' that dissolves when adding to water) Im putting it directly into the overflow chamber which should mix it up well on way down to sump.

also if you can disconnect your fuge for a day or two and see if the result is the same (KH and PH) in both systems!

not possible yet. i still need to add a ball valve to the fuge so i can separate it off if needed!

is your PH stable at the moment or is it swinging as well?

not sure, i dont think my pinpoint is calibrated correctly because it is showing pH low at 7.75. I did a drytab test just to get a rough comparison and that shows closer to 8.2. Will calibrate the pinpoint and try again now (am off work crook today )

you not using any other acids around the tank in any form (building etc?) that may end up via skimmer or other in your tank?

no cannot think of anything acidic that would be added to the tank, whether that be deliberately or accidentally (other than fish food!)

Heres tests I have done of recent and what I've done to compensate. I figure adding Mg and Sodium bicarbonate at the same time will increase kH plus the Mg will stop it dropping so quick (need to do that water change urgently though! damn weather)

Mon night:

Mg 1050 (added 1 cup of Mg)

kH 5.2 (added 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 litre water)

Ca 380 (increased bubble rate from 1 every 2-3 seconds to 1 per second)

Tues night:

Mg 1110 (added 1.5 cups of Mg)

kH 6.2 (added another 3 heaped tblspoons baking soda diluted in 1 litre water)

Ca 380 (nothing)

I will test again same time tonight and see what I get. I have read after adjusting your Calcium reactor that you have to wait a good 2-3 days before testing and making any further adjustments because, due to the slow drip rate, it takes time for the changes to take effect.

It is a Korallin C3001 reactor - same as JoeBlogs. Pies - I would also be interested in seeing the same chart you got off RC.

[wasp]

Don't be too worried about Ca not rising despite turning up the reactor. As you are adding baking soda, just the calcium not dropping is a good sign, it may rise once you stop adding baking soda.

But don't take the alk up too much while calcium is still low, as then as the reactor adds more while building calcium, the alk will go up even higher.

Looks like it's all on track