The Current Guppy Problems.

[Pegasus]

Guppy Aids.. Diseases.. or just Defects in the Gene Pool..?

Many of us.. not only here, but it seems throughout the world, are having problems with Guppies wasting away and developing bent spines along with other problems. This is more prevalent today that in earlier years... which leads me to believe it is not what we seem to believe.

The scaremongers and those that could not define an explanation for this were soon to attach various names to the problem, including Guppy Aids.. and Wasting Disease.

Like many, I don’t have a one-hundred percent qualified answer to this problem, and can only tell others about my own situation.

About a year or so back I had cleared my tanks of most of my general fish and decided to concentrate on Guppies. I still have a few Angels.. (retired).. plus a few Gouramies, but nothing of great interest.

Up until this point I didn’t own a single Guppy of any description, and when I “did†finally purchase some, I made absolute sure that they were from good stock and were breeding true.

There were two pairs that captured my interest.. one being a Blue Phantom type, which has a rather nice blue body and a flowing cloudy blue to white delta tail and fins.

The other pair was (what I would call).. a Half Red Flamenco, which has a half red body with a flaming red delta tail.

I have others.. but these are the ones I decided to concentrate mainly on.

Strict isolation was given to these fish, and fry were removed to individual tanks as soon as sexable, as I needed virgin females.

Both pairs have produced some nice fish, but unfortunately I lost the Flamenco female after she gave birth to a heavy brood.

This fish became so thin after the drop that she seemed as though she didn’t have the energy or will to get back into condition.. despite the best of conditions and food.

So then I was stuck with a male Flamenco.. but no female.. but fortunately the drop she made were all pretty close to form, and all the males produced had flaming red tails just like the male, and the females were all much like the original female.. so all in all I wasn’t too upset about losing the main female.

Now around this point is where I “think†all the probs started… for up until around three months ago I didn’t have a single fish with any deformity or illness.

I had decided to cross this lone Flamenco male with a random female that my son bought on one of his LFS trips. This was a decent looking female with a large sound body and shape, but mainly was just the basic greyish green that the common Guppy has, and had some basic colouring in the tail, some of which was red.

The offspring from these looked fine for the first few months… but then I started to notice a few that had started to develop the bent spine.. and a small number had begun wasting away and had died or were culled.

The Phantoms were kept within their line.. and as of yet, not deformities of any kind.

The Flamenco offspring strain have gone on to breed with the virgin females.. and again.. no probs.

So.. what have I learned..?

It is my belief that all this talk of Guppy Aids and the Wasting Away Disease is all just that.. talk and a myth.

First off is the fact that this so called aids is not contagious.. as far as my test have proved… and the wasting could be a number of factors, including heavy births that have stressed the female out to a large degree.

I truly believe that these problems are “inherited†ones.. that are passed on through the gene pool by the “femaleâ€.. and “not†the male.

The fish we have today are the direct descendants of a long line of mixed bag Guppies, among which were possibly some highly bred strains that took years to perfect.

The breeders overseas have one goal.. and that is money.

In order to make that money they need to produce fish with outstanding looks and quality. The purchaser at the end of the chain has no clue whatsoever how these fish were produced.. or what hidden genes (good or bad).. are hidden inside these beautiful looking fish.

Often in fish breeding something can be pushed to one side in favour of a seemingly more important factor.. in other words the virility and longevity of the fish is sacrificed in order to give the public the outstanding looks that they have now become to expect.

What can we do…?

Simple answer is to get the best stock you can, and from a reliable source if possible.

From here, you are on your own, as the seller may have no knowledge of how the offspring might look or fare.

Allowing those deformed fish that you may have to breed.. will then just add to the countries problem.. so again, the answer is simple…

Cull every fish that shows the slightest sign of a bent spine or wasting.. as there is “no cure†.. and no matter what you do, the end of the line will lead to the same result… the demise of the fish... plus more defects being fed into our stocks

If there is the “slightest†chance that one of these deformed fish has bred.. then isolate it if possible and dispose of it and its offspring as soon as possible.

It may be hard to do.. but it’s the only way if we are to eradicate this major prob we have.

Again.. in my estimation this is not a disease as such.. but just a bad set of genes, that one day the breeders will find, and hopefully remove from our breeding lines.

Next project…

A few weeks back I spotted an “All Black†Guppy in among some of the young fish.

It is a young male which is developing really well, and is totally black apart from a bright yellow outline around his flowing delta tail.

Will keep you posted he he.

Take care now

[Billaney]

you raise some very valid points there Bill, and all you say COULD be true, and with the state of the guppies these days COULD be is enough to give it a go, I have two "strain" guppy lines that at breeding true and have also had no deformities at all, and a tank with a mismatch of "pretty" guppies that DO, I'm going to Cull all i find with deformites and try and end the line there .... worth a try to get back to good healthy stock

Thanks Bill

[alanmin4304]

There is truth in what you say but I think there is also a little more going on with imported guppies. I bought some and they all croaked but the offspring are all perfectly healthy and are now producing the next generation which also appear to be OK.

[Dimsum]

All the guppies I have seen with bent spines or developed bent spines are females. Anyone have it happen to male fish?

[Staplez]

All the guppies I have seen with bent spines or developed bent spines are females. Anyone have it happen to male fish?

I have only seen females with bent spines but I have seen just as many other deformations in males.

[Pegasus]

Yes James... there are quite a lot of "defects" in the males also.. but the question centres around the wasting away and the bent spines, and the cause. Most of the defects in the males are poor colour, poor finnage... poor size... and so on.. which again could amount to bad genes in the initial breeding stock.

With the short maturing period of Guppies it doesn't take long for your good stock to become rubbish if you don't isolate and separate the sexes quickly. Once the fish with the defects fertilize your good stocks.. it could take many months to erradicate the problems that may follow.

As Dimsum points out.. it seems to effect mainly the females, and seems to be more in the Guppies, which may be due to the high levels of crossing and breeding for perfection.

Bill.

[Melanie]

I think that everything you've said makes sense, and that there may well be a genetic component to this, but I think there must be some infectious agent present to cause the problems to precipitate. I am not sure where this agent comes from--whether it's from build up in the filters or what--but I don't see how the disease could be strictly genetic given what I've experienced.

I also thought the disease was a myth until my fish came down with it. My fish came from two different breeders. I started losing adult fish suddenly, with no apparent discrimination between fish from one breeder or another. Symptoms were thinning, colour loss, and paralysis in the fins leading to crooked swimming.

When transferred to another tank with a third breeder's fish, the third breeder's fish, who had never had any problems whatsoever, came down with the same symptoms and began dying.

I've been very depressed about the loss of my fish and have done a lot of research. The most articulate and well thought out article I've found on the subject is this one:

http://www.ifga.org/articles/disease2.htm

Just my two cents. Of course, this explanation does not explain why the fry and young fish seem unaffected by the disease, which is why I think you may be right that there is a genetic component.

[Faran]

In my opinion all the syptoms appear to be similar to Muscular Dystrophy in humans. I had the opportunity to be a volunteer counselor at a MS summer camp for a week of every year when I was in the States and it's almost exactly the same. Young are not usually affected but as time goes on the muscles become weaker starting with the extremeties and working slowly more central until death due to chest muscle paralysis is the result. Spinal deformaties are a common symptom as well. This is a genetic disease and not infectious.

Then again, it could simply be a bug that causes the inability of the absorbtion of nutrients from foods. This would explain the bent backs in females (inability to recover after child birth) and the slow wasting of males with no other symptoms.

Before jumping the gun and trying to pinpoint the cause on pure speculation from observations, a true scientific study must be undertaken with a control group and a infectious group and the methodical observation of carefully observed groups. This would establish a definitive answer of whether it is infectious or genetic....

[Melanie]

My fish, which I know came from the same two sources as yours, were infected with whatever this is.

Someone agreed to look after my fish and put mine in with theirs, even though I advised them against it because I'd had problems with the disease.

Theirs got it and died within a week. They lost 55 fish in that week, which is abnormal for this person because they'd only lost 7 fish this year until adding my fish to the mix.

I think that's about as scientific as you're going to get from me, but if you read the article I linked, the writer managed to infect his healthy fish simply using water from an infected tank.

I'm not saying there is no genetic component to it. I'm sure there is. I think that everything Pegasus said here is probably true, but that unlike MS, there's some sort of infectious component that sets things off. I just have no idea what kind of infectious agent it would be. When the onset of the disease began in my tank, I had not added a new fish, any new plants or snails, or anything but water for over 3 months.

[Dimsum]

It appears more a genetic problem in my tanks, I've only had to cull a few fish this year. No massive die off or anything(touch bog-wood) so I suspect that a male swimming around my tanks is a carrier. The fish culled are in my random colour tank, my attempts to line breed seem fine.

[Melanie]

I think that we need to make some distinctions here in order to continue intelligently.

Before I experienced this new guppy disease, one of the reasons I denied its existence was that nobody has compiled a set list of symptoms. Because of this, every single guppy problem in the book seemed to get labelled "guppy AIDS."

Is it possible we're talking about two different things here? (As in, if you're not having a massive die-off, perhaps you don't have this disease in your tanks and are just experiencing a guppy who has genetic deficits?)

[Keri Anne]

I haven't had this issue... yet. But it seems to me like there is more than one thing being described:

1) The “clamping diseaseâ€.

2) Genetic weakness.

3) Damage caused by environmental pressures.

a) Females not being separated out and having large broods of fry when they are too small to handle it.

b) Changes in conditions: Filter changes, fluctuations in water quality, filter changes.

c) Stress

This is another article that may help some people: http://www.ifga.org/articles/care4.htm

[livebearer_breeder]

Clamping is a sign of stress, not a disease......

Shae

[livebearer_breeder]

I haven't had this issue... yet. But it seems to me like there is more than one thing being described:

2) Genetic weakness.

3) Damage caused by environmental pressures.

a) Females not being separated out and having large broods of fry when they are too small to handle it.

b) Changes in conditions: Filter changes, fluctuations in water quality, filter changes.

c) Stress

Unfortunately Genetic "weakness" is becoming quite common in New Zealand these days.

Damage caused by the environment, is irrelevant, as it has little to do with the disease itself and is also subject from case to case.

Separating out, is often only done when strain breeding, and it is genetic "weakness" that has caused the problem of the females birth canals being too small or stressful to release there fry in the first place. Often as not, supplying a tank planted out with few males is good enough.

Water parameters are again subject from case to case, and have little to do with the actual disease that is causing the mass of death and deformities all around New Zealand

Stress describes most of the above, and is a very general issue, faced by all keepers of all fish, not just guppies, and is commonly rectified easily.

Shae

[Keri Anne]

I've read a few American articles that call the symptoms some people have described “Clamping diseaseâ€. Where the fish start swimming around the top, stop being able to use their fins then die. Sorry for any confusion.

[livebearer_breeder]

There's a lot of different information out there, essentially the same, just called different things, no worries, just clearing that up.

Shae

[Melanie]

Genetic weakness could make the fish more succeptible to disease, but there has got to be some sort of infectuous agent that begins the outbreaks of disease. Otherwise I don't understand how adding a new fish to a tank could set off an outbreak.

[Cyberfin]

I was going to post a request for help re: dying guppy's. My problem isn't females though: It seems my males are the ones who don't want to live. Sounds like I'm doing ok if I have healty females. Having read this thread, I now keep a closer eye on the fry and cull all with a defoarmity once identified. Let's get this little fish back on track.