For those who wish to argue about sand or whatever

[ghostface]

cleaning it must make some difference, the amount of filth that comes out when you do

[Brianemone]

obviously it will remove the loose detritis. but someone mentioned that something would bond to the sand that cant be removed by simply washing it

[lduncan]

yeah me and special jimmy.

what i would like to pick up on was the whole thing about taking the sand out to clean it and putting it back in.

from what i remember someone said that doing so wouldnt make a difference and that something would stay attached to the sand????

Your always going to have phosphorous bound to carbonate in your tank, it happens on you rock it happens on the sand. The thing is not to store it in such a way that it can be released to cause problems.

If I was to have sand in my tank (which i will on my next one), i'd be setting up the flow under the rocks to minimise collection under them, and then be vacuuming the sand at least weekly. To stop the real problem of oxygen gradients shifting.

[jetskisteve]

an X is a hasbeen and a SPURT is a drip under pressure

[lduncan]

A person who believes everything he says or thinks is a FACT, opinions and all, clearly sees himself as an expert.

...

Bomber is clear enough when he know what he's on about.

It's when he's talking about secret unidentified "nutrients" and such he becomes obscure. A trick picked up by at least one expert on this board, to ensure he can spend 20 pages talking about his theory without actually saying what it is.

I don't see myself as an expert. I'm interesting in building things and knowing how they work, which is why i've ended up in engineering. So I think I have quite a broad knowledge of many aspects of applied science. Most of the stuff I've learned hasn't been from a teacher or lecture. I've wondered how or why something worked, and then been motivated to find out and teach myself.

I think you'll find that Bomber knows exactly what he's on about, especially with regard to those "hint" arguments on RC about certain products. If only you do a little looking. Took me a few months to piece it all together but you learn a lot of interesting stuff on the way.

Take a look at where he works and what he does. Then take a look at the Caribbean reefs, and some of the events that happen in that area. Then ask yourself, is this guy just dropping hints because he doesn't know what he's on about?

I don't think so. And then when you do a bit of searching and piece it all together, you'll realise that maybe he does know what he's on about.

Layton

[Brianemone]

the thing that cracked me up was the disbelief of some people that he does 100% water changes. just empties it out and fills it up. i thought it made sense, nice and easy, the yanks were all amazed .

so back to the sand. is there any way to get the phosphate off the sand?? perhaps a non carbonate sand?

[wasp]

I don't see myself as an expert.

Layton

I didn't actually say you

However a person who will tell others they are wrong and feel no need to offer any proof will surely consider themself an expert.

[cookie extreme]

I think some people will believe anything an "expert" tells them

whats an expert? i would say any proper hobbyist today as more knowledge then any "expert" from the nineties or earlier. one reason not to purchase any old books on reef keeping!

most "experts" are normal hobbyist's like you and me, that have written a book or published some paper on reef aquarium's.

[lduncan]

I didn't actually say you

I didn't say you said I was an "expert". It was just a statement.

[lduncan]

whats an expert? i would say any proper hobbyist today as more knowledge then any "expert" from the nineties or earlier. one reason not to purchase any old books on reef keeping!

most "experts" are normal hobbyist's like you and me, that have written a book or published some paper on reef aquarium's.

How about a guy with a PhD in Marine Biology, a second PhD in Marine Pathobiology, who's job it is to research Caribbean reef health, and has more years experience in the hobby than almost everyone on this board put together?

Sounds like that guy should be an expert. But you should always check information, no matter where or who you get it from. He encourages people to do that.

Wasp sees that as him not knowing his facts. I see it as him teaching people.

Layton

[JoeBlog]

How about a guy with a PhD in Marine Biology, a second PhD in Marine Pathobiology, who's job it is to research Caribbean reef health, and has more years experience in the hobby than almost everyone on this board put together?

Sounds like that guy should be an expert. But you should always check information, no matter where or who you get it from. He encourages people to do that.

Wasp sees that as him not knowing his facts. I see it as him teaching people.

Layton

Completely agree.

[cookie extreme]

a PhD is optained by writing a paper!! for example on the poo's of starfish or similar. it does not mean that that person has absolute knowledge. it's the same in medicine. most of the family are medical doctors, but my MIL has a PhD doctorate in health. that does not make her a qualified person to judge on my well being or anybody elses. layton you could write a paper on draino in the fight against aiptaisa and if accepted you could gain a PhD. but that will not mean that you know everything about corals and the like. but i will agree people with PhD do write pretty good articles which are worth reading.

[lduncan]

There is a bit more to a PhD than that. But what your saying is true, even experts can be wrong, they don't know everything about anything, that's why I said:

"you should always check information, no matter where or who you get it from. He encourages people to do that."

[Sharkey]

isn't it funny every time we start to talk about the "Best set up" E.g. dsb bb etc etc its like some one has hit a nerve. Could this be because we each run and are passionate about our tanks? And would like to think it is the best way because it works so well for us. But the truth is all these methods work. Its like some one saying you are bringing your children up ok but this way is better. If there's one thing you learn about kids its that they are all different and all need to be treated different just like our tanks.... Now let talk about a more serious issue. The best Skimmer...

[lduncan]

I don't know why people react the way they do to these discussions. It's about knowing how things work, that's it.

Saying things like "all these methods work" is pointless. Of course they all "work", but they all work differently, and most if not all have pitfalls.

Knowing a bit about how these methods work, allows you to understand more of what goes on in the tank, and either avoid the pitfalls, or ignore them at your risk.

Layton

[Sharkey]

So layton what is the best way to run a tank ?

[lduncan]

Depends on your requirements. They can vary significantly from person to person.

[wasp]

whats an expert? i would say any proper hobbyist today as more knowledge then any "expert" from the nineties or earlier.

I'll go with that. Some of what's said in some of the older books (still offered for sale BTW) is laughable.

And I saw a pic of an authors tank, a man regarded as a leading aquarist in his day, that would now be considered an average or less tank.

And I still think a person who has to speak in riddles is likely unsure of his facts.

[wasp]

Your always going to have phosphorous bound to carbonate in your tank, it happens on you rock it happens on the sand. The thing is not to store it in such a way that it can be released to cause problems.

For some reason nearly all of us use some type of carbonate sand in our tanks. This is partly due to the old idea that it will slowly dissolve and "buffer" the water. Yes, you'll read that in a lot of old books. However modern calcium dosing methods make this reason for having carbonate sand redundant.

Just wondered if anyone knows wether silica sand would bind phosphate? If not, then that would remove a large part of the reason to not have a DSB. If it did not bind phosphate a simple vacuum would keep it clean. I know the main reason for not having silica based sand is the idea it will release silicate. In practise this has been found with most silica sands to be a non issue.

[JoeBlog]

a PhD is optained by writing a paper!!

Really, is that all it takes?! :roll: I wonder why it takes 4-5 years after 4 years of undergraduate study to get a PhD at any respectable North American university? We must be REALLY slow writers. How many have you "optained" then? mail order doesn't count!!

a PhD... does not mean that that person has absolute knowledge.

A reputable PhD degree says that you do have an expertise in your specialized area. I would say that Bomber's qualifications would make him an expert. However, no matter how much of an expert anyone is, their statements should be questioned. If not to only further your own knowledge, but also to possibly further the knowledge of the field entirely. And as Layton pointed out, Bomber encourages people to do that.

whats an expert? i would say any proper hobbyist today as more knowledge then any "expert" from the nineties or earlier.

If a “proper†hobbyist can read, I would hope that they would have as much knowledge as the experts of the 90's. However, this does not make them an expert, but may make them think that they are. Just as in any science, there is a progression of knowledge. The difference between knowing what was cutting edge in the 90's and knowing what is on the edge of science today is the factor that distinguishes an expert.

[lduncan]

Just wondered if anyone knows wether silica sand would bind phosphate? If not, then that would remove a large part of the reason to not have a DSB. If it did not bind phosphate a simple vacuum would keep it clean. I know the main reason for not having silica based sand is the idea it will release silicate. In practise this has been found with most silica sands to be a non issue.

It's not so much about the binding of phosphate to substrate, but the storing of phosphate in and around the substrate within bacteria.

Again the myth that silica sand releases any significant silicate is false. If that was the case, then no one would be using glass tanks. It's essentially the same compound.

Layton

[lduncan]

Really, is that all it takes?! :roll: I wonder why it takes 4-5 years after 4 years of undergraduate study to get a PhD at any respectable North American university? We must be REALLY slow writers. How many have you "optained" then? mail order doesn't count!!

You took 4 years to get you PhD Steve? You must be a slow writer.

[Pies]

Little bomber groupies

The only issue that annoys me in particular on this forum regarding sand beds etc is the attitude. Comments like 'you can keep a sandbed or SPS corals' etc agrivate me because they are completely untrue. Statements made by people who seem afraid to post pictures and updates of their own setups, but are quick to comment and critise others.

I've cooked some rock, and bugger all came out. In fact so little came it i'd say it was a complete waste of time. I certainly won't bother doing any more.

Sand in todays tanks seems to have 2 purposes. 1st for those who choose it for aesthetic reasons, sand bottom tanks looks nice BB tanks do-not (sure this is a personal thing). 2nd for tank benifits of a sandbed, critter life, fish comfort, coral/anemone comfort and 'filteration'.

I use a sandbed because they look nice, promote a healthy macrolife environment to the benifit of the corals/fish and to reduce nutrients to promote good coral colour and growth.

Pie

[wasp]

Little bomber groupies

Pie

ROTFL !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[JoeBlog]

The only issue that annoys me in particular on this forum regarding sand beds etc is the attitude. Comments like 'you can keep a sandbed or SPS corals' etc agrivate me because they are completely untrue. Statements made by people who seem afraid to post pictures and updates of their own setups, but are quick to comment and critise others.

I have been a rather small player in this whole BB argument, but I guess I would probably be considered a “bomber groupie†by others. I’m sorry Pies (and others) if we have come off with some sort of attitude, which given yours and others' reaction (not only here, but in many other forums), I assume attitude that you are referring to is that “Bomber groupies†think that BB is the only way to go, or that anyone that doesn’t go BB must be stupid, etc… This is not the case at all. I don’t believe that anyone has said that it “can’t†be done with a SB since it obviously can, e.g. many RC TOTM and even very nice tanks by this forum’s members.

Bomber, and now his groupies, has just been trying to explain to aquarists that there are inherent risks with SBs given the typical level of husbandry of the average aquarist. Steve Weast has a gorgeous SPS dominant tank with a SB, but also has a maintenance regiment that I am just not willing to do:

From http://oregonreef.com/sub_maintenance.htm: “I vacuum the sand at least once a weekâ€â€¦ “The vacuumed sand, along with the waste, is then discarded. As the sand gets too thin in the main display tank, new sand is added. It takes about three months of sand vacuuming to completely replace all the sand.â€

I personally don’t know why the “SB people†(especially you, Pies) get so uptight. Sharing this information is really just altruistic behavior. I don’t think that any aquarist would want to see a fellow aquarist’s tank “crashâ€.

As for posting pictures, I don’t believe that anyone is afraid . I don’t have a digital camera at the moment, but if I did, I probably wouldn’t post them in this forum anyway. I personally am very happy with my tank and frequently have friends over (people who I respect and vise versa) to check out what I am doing. I just don't have any desire to get into a pissing contest, which seems to be the way things go on this forum especially when people disagree. Lastly, I don't believe that I have ever criticized yours or anyone else's tank.

Sand in todays tanks seems to have 2 purposes. 1st for those who choose it for aesthetic reasons, sand bottom tanks looks nice BB tanks do-not (sure this is a personal thing).

I like the look of both, but would probably prefer the look of a nice clean white sand bed. It just doesn't suit my needs, husbandry threshold, etc... for my SPS tank. I will probably have a DSB in my LPS/softy tank that I would like to have in the future.

2nd for tank benifits of a sandbed, critter life, fish comfort, coral/anemone comfort and 'filteration'.

Benefits are arguable... A comparison that Bomber has made many times in relation to critters: If we kept our houses in the same state as many of our tanks, we would be calling the exterminator immediately to deal with the "beneficial" critters. Just as a cockroach has its place in eating the rotting food on some people's floors, these "critters" do the same for some peoples tanks. The problem is that they poo just as the fish do in our tanks. Some people claim that they like these critters for diversity, but they don't typically have cockroaches as pets along side their dogs and cats.

The fish I keep don't care about a sandbed. I do plan on getting some wrasses for which I will have a small box of sand "for their comfort" that I can replace regularly.

What do SPS care about sand???

Sandbed filtration... this has already been a beaten horse.