For those who wish to argue about sand or whatever

[wasp]

Well that just went right over your head.

I'm saying all DSB's work the same way. It's they way hundreds of scientist have observed and studied them. It's the way which is consistent with hobbyist observation. The thing is not that they don't work at all. It's how they work and the processes which are going on.

The fact is is that the processes going on in the sand bed can cause algae problems, and can cause death of sps corals. The fact that your rock is covered in high nutrient algae (from the photos i've seen) is evidence that your sand bed is working, cycling nutrients, just like hundreds of scientists have written.

Sand beds work by cycling nutrients and this can lead to algae problems which appear to be independent of water parameters. It can lead to tissue necrosis from the base in SPS through boring algaes, it provides food sources for flatworms and other undesirable critters. Just like they do in nature.

Layton

[ghostface]

speaking of sand.... mine is coming out today. not having algae problems, but you can see the amount of crap that ends up trapped in it. i would prefer that out of the tank rather than rotting in the sand bed.

what i am wondering though, is there any point having BB if you have a regfigium with a DSB? i figure that if the rocks in the display tank are not on sand, they can shed gunk and not leech it back up, and fish s**t can stay suspended long enough to get over the overflow and to the skimmer, rather than sticking in the sand like it does at the mo.

[lduncan]

what i am wondering though, is there any point having BB if you have a regfigium with a DSB?

Well all that means is that you have the dsb in the refugium cycling nutrients. Kinda defeats the purpose a little.

What do you use the refugium for?

[ghostface]

use it to grow food for tank, and to let the caulerpa absorb nutrients. at the moment it doesnt have a dsb, its only about 1-2 inch deep. the plan was to take the sand from tank, and add it to the fuge, which would take it to 5-6 inch deep. anyone think that there is any point to this at all?

[Sharkey]

I would suggest reading more about DSB Anthony Calfo has some good advice on reef central. There are a lot of tanks that use them with amazing results. Here in New Zealand there seems to be a anti-Dsb thing going on. But if nitrate control is your aim. You will get the results with a DSB. But as we all know what works on one tank might not get the same results on another. You could try Anthony's DSB bucket as a test its a simple method. Basically a bucket with sand on the return to your sump. My feelings about DSB are they are very good if used properly. Or they can be a big problem if you don't. Read read read.

[wasp]

Agreed. For awesome nitrate control, a DSB is the way to go.

[Brianemone]

is that a haiku???

i think DSB's have their place but its not in the display imo.

i want to put a little sand in my display but feel very cautious about all the gunk that my sand beds tend to collect

[lduncan]

use it to grow food for tank, and to let the caulerpa absorb nutrients. at the moment it doesnt have a dsb, its only about 1-2 inch deep. the plan was to take the sand from tank, and add it to the fuge, which would take it to 5-6 inch deep. anyone think that there is any point to this at all?

If you think about this, it's kind of backwards.

You want a low nutrient tank I presume, so you hook up a refugium, which requires high nutrients to grow the things which you think remove nutrients, like macro algaes. You also want the refugium to grow pods and zooplankton for your tank, which again requires high nutrient condition.

You want to plumb a tank which requires high nutrient to work, in line with your display which requires low nutrients to look good and survive?

It doesn't make sense to me.

[Feelers]

Does anyone here use a FBF? What does everyone think of them?

[Brianemone]

FBF????? what the?

[JoeBlog]

use it to grow food for tank, and to let the caulerpa absorb nutrients. at the moment it doesnt have a dsb, its only about 1-2 inch deep. the plan was to take the sand from tank, and add it to the fuge, which would take it to 5-6 inch deep. anyone think that there is any point to this at all?

With a properly run BB, you won't need the Caulerpa to absorb nutrients. The high flow will get the detritus in the water column, over the overflow and to your skimmer for export before it becomes a problem. For the heavier sediments that accumulate on the bottom, you can set up your flow so that it accumulated in convenient little piles for you to vacuum out. => no need for additional nutrient uptake by a refugium.

I would suggest reading more about DSB Anthony Calfo has some good advice on reef central. There are a lot of tanks that use them with amazing results.

This is excellent advice, but don't limit it to only DSB discussions, i.e. Anthony, Ron, etc... Look at them ALL (DSB,SSB, BB, remote DSB, etc...)and make an educated decision on how you want to run your tank. Probably the best information is presented in the BB threads since this is where most of the debate takes place. I don't believe that these threads are entirely biased towards BB either. You do have your "off comment", but read beyond that and focus on the information offered.

Here in New Zealand there seems to be a anti-Dsb thing going on.

This is not true at all. I don't know of ANYONE that is anti-DSB. Some of us have just chosen a different methedology predominantly because we have SPS dominant tanks. I think Layton is basically doing everyone a favor by trying to provide information on how DSB work, which I would certainly want to know if I were to have one in my tank. Also like Layton previously mentioned, quite a few BB people (including Bomber) also have DSB's in other systems that are LPS and Softies dominant.

[Feelers]

Fluidized bed filter, is basicially a chamber where a pump keeps the sand from settling on the bottom, in continious motion. Can do an enourmous bioload.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_fbf.php

[lduncan]

I would suggest reading more about DSB Anthony Calfo has some good advice on reef central. There are a lot of tanks that use them with amazing results. Here in New Zealand there seems to be a anti-Dsb thing going on. But if nitrate control is your aim. You will get the results with a DSB. But as we all know what works on one tank might not get the same results on another. You could try Anthony's DSB bucket as a test its a simple method. Basically a bucket with sand on the return to your sump. My feelings about DSB are they are very good if used properly. Or they can be a big problem if you don't. Read read read.

It's not an "anti-DSB thing going on". It's a "know how DSB's work" thing.

If you know how DSB's work, then you'll know that they are great at reducing nitrate. But you'll also know that they are required to store phosphate in order to reduce nitrate. You'll also know that the same processes which allow them to reduce nitrate, is the one which results in the cycling of nutrients.

I've used a DSB myself. In a remote form, to reduce nitrate, the thing is you've got to try an guess when it is full, then dump it before it starts its first release cycle. And it's a pure guess, the only way you truly know if it is full is when it starts causing problems.

Speaking of reading, here's what over 200 different scientist's observe, there are over 600 references there. Plenty of reading.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... t=Journals

Sand beds drive ocean nutrient cycles, they release metals and phosphorous, which give life to phyto which is consumed by zooplankton and washed onto reefs and feeds fish and animals, and then when fish and animals die, the phosphorous is returned to the sediments where it is stored until the next cycle of nutrient release.

Sediment flux is often the source of red tides, the Florida blackwater events, and algae blooms. It's just what they do.

Layton

[lduncan]

This is excellent advice, but don't limit it to only DSB discussions, i.e. Anthony, Ron, etc...

:lol: You mean the same Dr Ron who charges US$175 to tell you how to run a DSB. The same one who sell books on how to operate a DSB. The one who said only a few years ago that running a DSB is as easy of falling off a log? I think he has too much of a commercial interest in DSB's to be worth taking too much time to read.

Look at them ALL (DSB,SSB, BB, remote DSB, etc...)and make an educated decision on how you want to run your tank. Probably the best information is presented in the BB threads since this is where most of the debate takes place. I don't believe that these threads are entirely biased towards BB either. You do have your "off comment", but read beyond that and focus on the information offered.

As with anything, be sceptical of what you read, and your sources. People get pissed off with Bomber because he's reluctant to just come out and spoon feed them with information. He throws hints so people can find the information themselves, and become better at learning. I think his opinion is "why should anyone believe what I say over anyone else?". If you've got hundreds of different people from all different parts of the world saying the same thing, then it's more likely that it's right.

Layton

[wasp]

I think peopple who drop hints do it because they are unsure of their facts.

Then when they are shown to be wrong they can always say " I didn't actually say that"

[lduncan]

I think some people will believe anything an "expert" tells them. They don't even ask themselves, "does this make sense?" half the time.

Maybe because they are too lazy to think and find information themselves.

Layton

[JoeBlog]

I think peopple who drop hints do it because they are unsure of their facts.

Then when they are shown to be wrong they can always say " I didn't actually say that"

Bomber uses the Socratic Method to get people to think for themselves. I believe that he’s just an old academic for which I am sure this has become the norm. Being an academic myself, I’ve found that this line of discussion doesn’t do well in the “real†world since “normal†people take offense, my wife for one!!

[wasp]

I do question if what's said by some of the experts on this board make sense.

Goes down like a ton of bricks!

[JoeBlog]

I do question if what's said by some of the experts on this board make sense.

Goes down like a ton of bricks!

Is anyone on this forum an "expert"?! If so, I think we are using the term pretty loosely.

[wasp]

Bomber uses the Socratic Method to get people to think for themselves.

Bomber is clear enough when he know what he's on about.

It's when he's talking about secret unidentified "nutrients" and such he becomes obscure. A trick picked up by at least one expert on this board, to ensure he can spend 20 pages talking about his theory without actually saying what it is. A perfect ruse to be able to attack others but never be attacked cos nothing beyond hints was ever said.

[wasp]

Is anyone on this forum an "expert"?!

A person who believes everything he says or thinks is a FACT, opinions and all, clearly sees himself as an expert.

[Brianemone]

when wasp says "expert" i think we all know he's refering to me

isnt this about sands etc???

[Jimmy]

or me

[Jimmy]

or me

[Brianemone]

yeah me and special jimmy.

what i would like to pick up on was the whole thing about taking the sand out to clean it and putting it back in.

from what i remember someone said that doing so wouldnt make a difference and that something would stay attached to the sand????