Pegasus Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 INNOVATIONS IN TANK DESIGN. The Cascade System. This is nothing new of course, and has been done many times before using different methods, many of which need the tank to be drilled in some manner, or the reliance on a siphoning system, that can cause problems. If you are unconcerned about passing water from one tank to the next, then the cascade system is an ideal way to use a single heat source to heat a number of tanks. I used the following because I have just set up a large number of 2x15x12 tanks and needed a cheaper method of heating them. The application here will need one of the end panels on the tank to be made, or altered, to suit, so a little skill in glass cutting is required. It is also mainly aimed at those that are making tanks, although you could convert an existing tank if you were brave enough. One letdown, if it is such a thing, is that each additional tank has to be slightly higher than the proceeding one, a height of only 30mm, but nevertheless, it may not suit everyone's taste, but for my application I was unconcerned and used a single flat stand with a 30mm packing under each additional tank. The Cascade Conversion. Using this system, the water has to flow from the tank at a higher level, to one at a lower level, and then back again. Any number of tanks can be added, provided the next one is slightly higher than the last, but it is suggested that only up to five or six are connected at this stage, or you can do it with just two tanks if you want to experiment. The end glass at one end is cut 30mm shorter than the tank top. The piece you removed will now become part of the end piece, but will need cutting to suit and then siliconing into position. For the actual overflow I used a short rectangular tube. My first attempt was to form a rectangle tube by heating a piece of 40mm plastic pipe under the grill, and then forcing a piece of wood into the semi flexible plastic. It was easy to do, but I found an alternative. Later I found it easier to use discarded craft knife blade holders. These are ideal and will give adequate flow when the ends are removed. They are around 20mm wide by 12mm deep, so you will need to position the piece of tube (converted blade holder) in the centre of the shortened end glass and mark its position. The 30mm strip you cut off will now need cutting so that you have a piece to fit at either side of the rectangular tube. Silicone the two 30mm strips to the top edge of the shortened end, and onto the front or back glass as required. Do this by placing them edge to edge. You should now have a complete end, minus a gap in the middle which is 30mm wide. Cut two more strips of glass around 15mm wide and cover the joining of the 30mm strips and the shortened end glass. Do this by applying silicone to the strip, then position over the joins and apply slight pressure for a few moments. It will hold in place. The only thing left to do is to now bond the rectangular tube into position. This is a bit messy, but I find the finger works best to spread the silicone around the rectangle tube. I let the tube overhang into the tank by around 30mm, and the rest extends from the tank side and will eventually overhang the next lower tank. The short overhang in the converted tank will allow me to add a piece of mesh over the opening if required to stop fry being passed from one tank to the next. Check to see it is well sealed, and don't be too worried about the top section being open, as the water will never reach that level. Place the tanks in position and ensure that the one with the conversion is around 30mm higher than the other, and both are on a solid stand with a styrene base for each. Lifting the water. Any flexible tube around 12mm will do for the transfer water pipe, as all you really need is a pipe with an airline pushed in the bottom. I used a bit of garden hose for my trials, but you may want something better looking. The uplift pipe should always go in the lowest tank of all, as placing it elsewhere will cause one or more tanks to overflow. Adjust the air so that the water is lifted in the flexible pipe and flows into the upper of the tanks. The flow should only go into the upper most tank in the line of tanks, otherwise that tank will remain cold. As the tank fills the water will begin to pour from the rectangular tube and into the next lower tank, then the next, then the next, until it reaches the lowest tank where it is forced back into the highest tank in the line. Even if you had ten in line, the effect would be the same, as each higher tank would overflow into the next lower one. All my tanks remained within one degree of each other, so I don't think it makes much difference which one the heater is in, but I suggest putting it in the tank that is the lowest one, the one with the uplift. The heater in the uplift tank is 150watt, but perhaps in winter this may need upgrading to a larger size. Instead of an airlift you could of course use a powerhead. As long as the overflow rectangular tube is larger than the input of water coming into the tank, then the tanks will never overflow past the rectangular overflow pipe. A strainer mesh can be added to prevent fish moving tanks. I would be pleased to hear any questions or opinions, either posted here, or by email. Detailed pics will follow as soon as I get access to a camera. Happy Days Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Hi All, A few pics here (at last) showing the system working. Only three tanks are set up as a trial at the moment, but the system has worked flawlessly since it was set up. One or two things I will do with the next lot are, Add a small piece beneath each rectangular overflow to prevent dripback. This only happens if the water gets low due to evaporation, and when it happens and the water has less flow, the water tends to dribble back along the underneath of the rectangular overflow pipe. A small piece of plastic stuck beneath the pipe prevents this, as can be seen on the tank with the yellow overflow. The other point is, I would not use the knife holders again, as I find they can't cope if the flow is increased, so I would opt for the 40mm type. The pics are here : http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/grumpy ... 0Tanks.htm Happy Days Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I hjave been throwing around a similar idea (still in the head at the moment) using a large canister filter. The intake in the lowest tank and the return in the top. Same concept. I have just been a bit worried about stagnant water in the middle tanks (I want 4 altogether) so I considered using a small corner filter or something in them. I know there would still be flow from the water coming and going, but I was concerned more with the water at the bottom of the tanks. Thanks for the ideas Bill, once again you are an inspiration and no doubt have been reading my mind yet again. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi Joey, Great to see you on the forum again. Been watching for you on the "other" board, but don't see you there much. If you look here in the technical section, there's a thing called a fry saver. The same concept could be used as a filtration system. Some form of seperator would be needed to just clear the bottom of the pail, and the return (overflow) would draw water from beneath this seperator. Stagnant Water ??? In the cascade system, the water is lifted from the lowest tank, and from the lowest "level" of that tank. The water from this is pushed (by whatever means... airlift... powerhead) up to the highest tank in the line. The water from this (the highest tank) overflows into the next lowest.... and so forth, so there is no "stagnant water" allowed to settle, as everything is on the move. I still run a box filter in each tank on my setup, but am working on a central unit for the whole bank. If you intend using a single heater, you must keep track of evaporation, for if the tanks get low on water, the overflows cease to work, and if the overflows cease to work, then the temp could drop in one or more tanks. Thanks for the feedback Joey. Any probs... you know where I am :) Regards, Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I think that I actually worded it a bit wrong, not exactly stagnant water, just sort of water skimming over the top and progressing on to the next tank if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi again Joey, Watching the overflows you can actually see the flow of water shooting down to the lower regions of the tank below. If a bit of duckweed gets sucked in, (which it will if you don't use the strainer on the overflows) you can see it shoot down at least two thirds of the tank depth, so obviously there is good circulation. Regards, Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I have been thinking a lot about this system, .....blaming Pegasus for the black bags under my eyes..... In another post here somewhere there is a sponge filter setup vertically, Hamburger Meshismit??? or similar. Do you think they would work for this system? One in each tank? Or would the water only flow thru the top half of the sponge. If this did work then the only thing needed to run it would be something to move the water from bottom tank to top tank and the sponge mats would look after themselves. Maybe the sponge material down the bottom could be more porous where the flow is slower??? I'm still playing with leggo when it comes to DIY.... Dianna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 The turbulence should mix the water fairly well just like when you do a water change and tip it in from a bucket. You could adjust the amount of turbulence by adjusting the hight of the previous tank. Another way is to use a syphon system like in an overflow. The entry to to the tube for the syphon could be placed near the bottom of the higher tank and exit at top of the lower tank. To save building heaps of overflow containers, and trying to suck air out of all the tubes, the glass could still be cut as Pegasus outlined so the tube is lower then the top of the tank. This will give both hoizontal and vertical water movement in each tank. The intake could have a sponge filter attached (or behind a Hamburg Mattenfilter) for extra filtration & to stop fry from going on a hydroslide ride :lol: The whole idea could also be reversed but may produce a gurgling sound if the intake is at surface level. Good idea Pegasus. Have you thought of scarificing one tank in the lineup (lowest one?) as a sump for all the filtration, heating, pump and other equipment? A large Wet/Dry filter could be used. Cheers Shilo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 A lot of the fish shops in Christchurch use cascading tanks for their plant displays. Some of the cascades bend in the middle to form a right angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joze Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I have been thinking about doing a large betta tank in this arrangement but obviously in a different size. Any opinions on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Shilo said, Another way is to use a syphon system like in an overflow. The entry to to the tube for the syphon could be placed near the bottom of the higher tank and exit at top of the lower tank. To save building heaps of overflow containers, and trying to suck air out of all the tubes,Problem here is "Balance". You can never balance the siphons exactly, and in the event of one of the siphons failing, you would end up either flooding or emptying a tank. With the above system, the worst that could happen would be the overflows getting blocked with plant matter, which can be avoided if the correct strainer is used. There are no tubes to suck in this system, as it is air driven, or you could use a powerhead. Have you thought of scarificing one tank in the lineup (lowest one?) as a sump for all the filtration, heating, pump and other equipment? Sure have :) In fact I tried that very thing last night. I am trialing a filter medium that .... well.... shall we say "It just didn't come up to expectations" Early days yet. I have dozens of tanks waiting to be fitted into my fishroom, but until I am absolutely sure the trial systems work (which the cascade one does... flawlessly) then they can remain unfilled. Hi Caryl, As I mentioned originally, the cascade system is nothing new, but the basis for this can be used for so many things, from just saving on heaters and such, to fantastic filtration systems, or just a simple fry saver. I have a single cascade on the end of my big tank with a pair of spawning Angels in. It runs off the main tank and has allowed me to combine the same conditions as the tank they came out of, with no concerns about water conditions and such. Hi Jaze, The "Betta Condo" in this section might suit your needs, as all you need is a piece of spouting and some nylon screen mesh. Thanks for your input folks.... I just love this DIY stuff. Sorry about the sleepless nights Dianna :) Regards, Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi all, Here's a couple of links that may inspire the DIY in you. They were provided by Delta (Dianna) on the Boronia forum in Australia, http://pub64.ezboard.com/bboroniaaquari ... ctivepages which by the way is another great site. The ideas are simple, but could add another dimension to your fishkeeping hobby. and with a bit of thought could be altered to suit your needs :) www.theprofishionals.com....hitek.html http://www.mrfelix.com/storyofwater/designs.html Thanks once again for the links Dianna. Regards, Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joze Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 I actually have them set up like that now. There are several ideas running around in my head from a hydroponic type setup to cascading tanks. I really like the idea of cascading tanks as it could be made into an indoor water feature, which would suit where I keep the fish. (bar, pool outside, rec room). Considering the room is in need of some serious renovation, I thought it would be nice to integrate a cascade tank feature into the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted January 23, 2003 Report Share Posted January 23, 2003 Hi Pegasus, I love hashing out ideas like this You can never balance the siphons exactly, and in the event of one of the siphons failing, you would end up either flooding or emptying a tank Siphon was probably the wrong word to use. I was visualising a tube that goes from the lower depths of the tank, straight up the wall to a elbow bend through the cut glass. The water could either pour into the next tank from this bend or else (if somebody wanted a quiet system) another tube could be connected to take the water just below the water level of the next tank (to avoid siphoning back up). If the tube blocks then the same thing will happen if screen in the cut out area of the cascade system blocks. With a rise in the water level the level in the tube will also rise until the hight of the cutout. More water into the tank means the flow out of it would be faster. If it drops then siphoning will only occur until air is reached in the lower tank. If a larger tube dia was used then the one on the pump, no tanks will over full. Should enable more current down in the lower end (below the cascade cutout) of the tank. Of course all this is probably not necessary. Keep us up to date on that filter medium experiments, I'm on the look out myself. Currently using Pumice, Cut up straws and ceramic noodles (to expensive!) Sorry about spelling etc - must get back to work. Cheers Shilo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Hi Shilo, The system would also work that way. I did a little test by placing two thermometers in the lowest tank, (one futhest from the heat source) and the temp is the same in both the upper and lower regions, and is within one degree of the tank with the heater. My original "Fry Saver" had a tube right to the bottom of the pail, and from the trials on that I decided to apply it to tanks. This filter thing is going to take a lot of thought, and I am looking at a system that will not cost me an arm and a leg to replenish when the time comes. I'm also looking at using one of those nylon boxes you get to store kids toys, as this could be chopped and changed easier than glass. Good to see you are keen on the DIY HI Jaze, I really like the idea of cascading tanks as it could be made into an indoor water feature, which would suit where I keep the fish. (bar, pool outside, rec room). Considering the room is in need of some serious renovation, I thought it would be nice to integrate a cascade tank feature into the room Sound like you have the perfect place to sit and dream how it will all turn out. The cascade system on the link I posted would look choice if you had the room Regards, Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Pegasus said: I'm also looking at using one of those nylon boxes you get to store kids toys, as this could be chopped and changed easier than glass Funny that you should mention that :lol: I carry a tape measure everywhere and have been measureing all the plastic tubs I come across to see if one can be cut to fit exactly over a glass tank creating a rim or plastic or collar, and then the overflow/waterfall/spout could be fromed by melting the plastic and pulling it into a spout shape. Just need to find the right box. Spotted one that would fit a 2ft tank but it was AU$35 each (heavy duty builders type tote box) and I don't think I can justify hacking into it with a saw and blo torch at that price. Pitty though it has great moulded handles either end that would make excellent overflows. Dianna. PS:How do you quote text?? I don't think my attempt will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 :oops: sorry the quote ended up backwards. My post is the quoted bit in reply to pegasus's comment about plastic boxes. Oh boy I'm having a good day :lol: Dianna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 How's that Dianna.... It's called "Moderator Magic" Just highlight the text you want to quote, then click on "Quote" at the head of the submitting box. The Plasics Shop (over here) seem to have a range of 30ltr bins pretty cheap, but it seems an expensive way to go, as you said. You could of course add a 40mm rim made out of glass to the top of your tank There would be little pressure at this point, as the original tank would remain intact. Regards, BIll (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Like that moderator magic!!!....I'm trying to avoid cutting glass, otherwise I could just make tanks to fit the largest boxes, we have those cheap ones too but as yet none are the right size for what I have in mind. Dianna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted January 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 No excuses he he. You could extend the rim using acrylic, or a good strong plastic strip Amazing what you can do with acrylic and a hot wire... or the oven grill if the missus is out Someone has just got me thinking about an automatic baby brine shrimp feeder..... mmmm.... wonder who that was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 :lol: :lol: payback for the water cascading through my head!!! I will go back to the shop and take a photo of the automatic BBS hatcher, just got a new digital camera! whoo hoo, hope theyre busy... do you think they will mind?? Di 007 undercover on operation BBS -signing out 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: @ Di there she goes ----------------------------------> 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 NEWS FLASH!! Suspected Terrorist Caught In Sydney Pet Shop! A suspected terrorist was arrested today after being caught in an outer Sydney suburban petshop. Armed with a digital camera, she was seen acting suspiciously near the BBS hatchers. It is thought she may be planning to train brine shrimp to carry miniature missiles to blow out the supports on the harbour bridge. A search of her home is currently being undertaken. So far, long lengths of black plastic piping and a large hot water cylinder have been confiscated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Continuing live from Caryl.......TV NZ 4 .................The suspect had in her home some rather large and small fish which are suspected of being in training for terrorist tank attacks. These are being observed closely. There will be ongoing updates as the news breaks. Remember you heard it first here on NZ fish forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 The suspect remains in custody, despite the extreme torture of not knowing if the fish are being fed she will not talk. A message scrawled on a piece of plastic was intercepted. Authorities are still trying to break the code... ATLED......MOOR.HSIF..ZN...EM..PLEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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