Iron facts in case you're wondering...

[lduncan]

Some people may find this interesting.

Fact 1: Zeovit zeolite leaches iron. Lars Sarbella tested the zeolite used in the zeovit system (in 1998 i think) and found that it added and average of 200ug/L of iron daily.

Fact 2: Zeovit zeolite leaches iron. Habib has recently done less sophisticated experiments and, although not willing to disclose actual numbers, he has confirmed that it would easily added at least 20ug/L of iron daily.

Fact 3: Average iron level at the surface of the ocean is less than 1ug/L (closer to 0.3ug/L)

Fact 4: Iron enrichment causes zooxanthellae populations (and many algaes and bacteria) to increase. The largest increase in zooxanthellae was found in that with just iron additions:

Response of a scleractinian coral, Stylophora pistillata, to iron and nitrate enrichment.     Ferrier-Pages, Christine; Schoelzke, Vanessa; Jaubert, Jean; Muscatine, Len; Hoegh-Guldberg, Ove.    Observatoire Oceanologique Europeen, Centre Scientifique de Monaco,  Monaco,  Monaco.    Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology  (2001),  259(2),  249-261.

Fact 5: Elevated iron levels can cause corals to bleach. (Zooxanthellae populations increase as above, however once a limit is reached the coral begins to expel zooxanthellae)

Metal tolerance in the scleractinian coral Porites lutea. Harland, A. D.; Brown, B. E. Cent. Trop. Coastal Manage., Univ. Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK. Mar. Pollut. Bull. (1989), 20(7), 353-7.

Which states “Exposure of the scleractinian coral P. lutea to elevated iron concns. leads to a loss of zooxanthellae (symbiotic algae) from the coral tissuesâ€.

Fact 6: Bleached corals can be colourful

Fact 7: Metal eating bacteria exist in marine environments which use ammonia as an electron donor in the reduction of iron, under aerobic conditions. Less ammonia leads to less nitrate being formed.

Fact 8: Iron compounds are used in commercial phosphate removers due to their ability to bind phosphate.

Fact 9: Different species of metal eating bacteria use iron as an electron donor to reduce nitrate under anerobic conditions.

Layton

[wasp]

.

SOME ADJUSTMENT TO THESE "FACTS" REQUIRED :roll:

Fact 1: Zeovit zeolite leaches iron. Lars Sarbella tested the zeolite used in the zeovit system (in 1998 i think) and found that it added and average of 200ug/L of iron daily. Layton

Your fact 1 is a very selective use of "facts".

You forgot to mention that this 1998 test was done on a different zeolite than is used today.

In other words, your described "fact", is no longer a "fact"

Fact 2: Zeovit zeolite leaches iron. Habib has recently done less sophisticated experiments and, although not willing to disclose actual numbers, he has confirmed that it would easily added at least 20ug/L of iron daily.

Layton

The most factual thing in your fact 2 is your words "less sophosticated experiment", a correct assessment. In fact (pun ), the experiment was too far removed from what would happen in an actual real zeovit aquarium, to give results that could be deemed accurate. Hence Habibs refusal to give actual results.

Habib is conducting this research for his own business purposes.

And to be honest, I find it somewhat unprofessional of him to do this experiment that would not be considered fully valid for the purpose intended in a normal commercial context, and then go on the net making claims as to the results, yet refuse to divulge actual numbers. It is this type of thing that has been going on down the years that has so frustrated the Zeovit manufacturer that he has resorted to threatening legal action on occasion. Although I would presume Habib will be clever enough to know just how far he can push it, hence no exact numbers.

Fact 4, Fact 5, and Fact 6 - I will congratulate you, you have backed these claims with a little research.

[lduncan]

Your fact 1 is a very selective use of "facts".

You forgot to mention that this 1998 test was done on a different zeolite than is used today.

In other words, your described "fact", is no longer a "fact"

As far as i'm aware, the only change to the zeolite was the addition of the 4th one to the mix. Your just assuming that the zeolite was completely changed. I see that the analysis was actually done in 2002.

The most factual thing in your fact 2 is your words "less sophosticated experiment", a correct assessment. In fact (pun ), the experiment was too far removed from what would happen in an actual real zeovit aquarium, to give results that could be deemed accurate. Hence Habibs refusal to give actual results.

Again, if you bothered to read the thread, you will see why Habib refused to publish exact numbers. Less sophisticated in this case means that he definately measured the values he did. So they are at LEAST 20ug/L. However he could not discount the uptake of iron by bacteria and algae, which would have the effect of lowering the measured values. The Lars analysis could account for this.

Habib is conducting this research for his own business purposes.

That is a very bold claim. I think he does this for his own personal interest. From the postings I have seen, he is a person who can separate his business from these sorts of things and look at them with a more open mind than most.

I also think that what was said here in relation to Habib's involvement in the thread was disgusting:

If Habib is such an expert on chemistry and at the same time he is CEO of Salifert, why can't he design salifert test kits that are accurate ?

Should be easy enough wouldn't you think ?

I fail to see why this is so difficult for you to accept that it is possible that the system may rely on iron to do what it does. To me it can explain everything that can happen when using zeovit.

Layton

[lduncan]

.

Fact 4, Fact 5, and Fact 6 - I will congratulate you, you have backed these claims with a little research.

So are you willing to take this back?

And hey! that's rich

Just a few days ago you were saying the supposed iron in a zeovit system would reduce zoox and thereby bring out the pigments in corals. Now you're saying the opposite

Sometimes you are a hoot!!

Because in reality i never said the "opposite".

Layton

[jetskisteve]

IF YOU WERE NOT "WONDERING" please say so

YEP for me!

[wasp]

Because in reality i never said the "opposite".

Layton

You did in fact make opposing statements, depending on what you are arguing about. And this has been a pattern of yours for a long time.

Would you like me to put up quotes from you, back to back?

Bear in mind this will make you look very foolish.

-Your call...

[lduncan]

I call yes bring back quotes. (with links).

[reef]

As far as i'm aware, the only change to the zeolite was the addition of the 4th one to the mix. Your just assuming that the zeolite was completely changed. I see that the analysis was actually done in 2002.

I believe that they have changed all the zeolite.

I have the old media that they used to get from Aqualight and I have the new media that they use.

The media is different, however on observation it looks like the new media has more iron as when you break up the new media I can see more rust marks.

Someone must be able to test to see how must goes into the aquarium as one sign of overdosing iron is more algae in the tank and I have not noticed this. When I used to dose an iron supplement and put too much in I use to get lots of Algae all over the rock/glass and now when I add zeolite I don’t get any algae.

Mr NZ zeovit should be able to find out from Thoma Pohl why they changed media and how much iron goes into the tank.

I still believe the weekly water changes are made to reduce iron and the addition of carbon.

But then why cant you use a zeolite that is low in iron.??

[wasp]

Layton you are brave - but you're off the hook.

I have been "unofficially warned" about this, so the Laytons funny bloopers post will not be happening.

Reef, that was a very good post. My own thoughts on this are as follows-

If Habib says that in his experiment the zeolite leached iron, then I believe him.

Where the problem is, is that it has been implied that the water in a zeovit tank will contain hundreds of times more iron than NSW, and this is not the case.

Where I see the problem with the experiment is that any product at all, not just zeovit, must be tested when used according to the manufacturers directions. In other words, to see how much iron zeovit rock would leach into a zeovit tank, it must be tested in the manner in which it would be used in a zeovit tank.

When used according to instructions, the zeovit rock is placed in a reactor which is then dosed with bacteria. The reactor is also cycled on 3 hours, off 3 hours, to facilitate certain bacteria that outcompete under low aerobic conditions.

The zeolite developes a coat of bacterial slime, the effect of which is to produce a microclimate right on the zeolite surface. This will very much effect the what, why, how, and how much, of anything that may leach from the zeovit rock. Of course it is very possible that these bacteria may utilize iron, it would sound like a pretty good plan.

But at the end of the day, the water in a zeovit tank does not contain the huge amount of iron that has been implied, so the Habib experiment, while interesting, has not told the whole story, there is more to it.

[Brianemone]

i see an easy way of finding out. have some people that use zeovit test for iron and have some that dont test for iron. obviously not very statisticly correct but if the numbers are anything close to what is suggested then it should be obvious

[wasp]

Excellent idea! I am happy to volunteer my tank for testing by some neutral person.

[reef]

The problem is that testing for iron is not easy in saltwater.

Who does the test kits??

Another question re the zeovit reactors, why have they reduced the water going through the reactor?? i think first it was suppose to be 2000L and now it is far less??

[wasp]

Can't answer the test kit question. However, it would certainly be an interesting thing to do. A number of zeovit tanks, compared to some other tanks. A MM tank would also be interesting.

On the reactor question, I've been told if the flow is too fast it can cause cloudiness in the water, this has been a problem in the past. Not sure if there is any more to it than that. But the recommended flow rate now is 100 US gallons per hour, per litre of zeovit. However, when I first made my own reactor I in error had too much flow through it, around 4 x the recommended amount. This was remedied after a few months, however I did not see any ill effects from this.

[lduncan]

Layton you are brave - but you're off the hook.

I have been "unofficially warned" about this, so the Laytons funny bloopers post will not be happening.

Who warned you? I am quite happy for you to quote me to try and find inconsistencies. It may actually force you to carefully read what i have written, which would not be a bad thing. Who knows something may fall into place. You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting them for all to see.

Where the problem is, is that it has been implied that the water in a zeovit tank will contain hundreds of times more iron than NSW, and this is not the case.

Do you have evidence that this is the case? The evidence shows that under tank conditions running the full zeovit system, and average of 200ug/L was added.Which is indeed hundreds of times greater.

Habib has confirmed at least 20ug/L, which is still significantly higher than NSW. Under tank conditions, and by testing the source of the iron, this value is likely to be much higher.

These levels are nowhere near toxic levels for fish, algae or bacteria. It's acting like a fertiliser.

The rapid increase to these levels can appear to have "toxic" effects on corals, by causing release of zooxanthellae. You'll notice later on in the study on Porities, they say that the corals can adapt to the new levels.

Where I see the problem with the experiment is that any product at all, not just zeovit, must be tested when used according to the manufacturers directions. In other words, to see how much iron zeovit rock would leach into a zeovit tank, it must be tested in the manner in which it would be used in a zeovit tank.

Like in the Lars analysis?

When used according to instructions, the zeovit rock is placed in a reactor which is then dosed with bacteria. The reactor is also cycled on 3 hours, off 3 hours, to facilitate certain bacteria that outcompete under low aerobic conditions.

Do you know for a fact that this has that effect?

The zeolite developes a coat of bacterial slime, the effect of which is to produce a microclimate right on the zeolite surface. This will very much effect the what, why, how, and how much, of anything that may leach from the zeovit rock. Of course it is very possible that these bacteria may utilize iron, it would sound like a pretty good plan.

Bacteria could possibly accelerate the release of iron? Why are the rock agitated daily?

But at the end of the day, the water in a zeovit tank does not contain the huge amount of iron that has been implied, so the Habib experiment, while interesting, has not told the whole story, there is more to it.

Exactly, the iron level in the system is independent of the iron level in the water. Habib's experiment may suggest that, as I believe he was measuring iron concentration in the water. The total iron used in the aquarium depends on how much and how quickly the iron is sequestered by animals within the aquarium. You could have undetectable levels of iron, yet still have a large amount being released and processes through your tank.

Here is some info on iron in biology:

"All living creatures need iron. Some get it in food and some by absorbing free iron from solution. Still others get it by secreting special molecules, called siderophores, which go out into solution, bind very strongly to iron ions, which are then actively reabsorbed when the species that released it comes into contact with the siderophore/iron complex. In many natural environments, ranging from parts of the ocean to the human intestine, iron can be in such short supply that it becomes a limiting nutrient for growth. As a consequence, organisms have developed elaborate methods of collecting iron from their environments. "

To measure elemental iron is difficult to do achieve with a "test kit", mass spectroscopy i believe is the easiest method.

Layton

[wasp]

[lduncan]

Bashing your head won't help you understand.

Layton

[wasp]

Anybody got any ideas on how to do the iron test?

Layton can you elaborate on this mass spectroscopy that you believe is the easiest method.

There is a way that some of the more advanced Zeovit users test for iron, but I do not believe it will be considered acceptable by the people who think zeovit poisons the tank.

EDIT. I should say person, not people. I think there is only one left in NZ.

[lduncan]

Anybody got any ideas on how to do the iron test?

Layton can you elaborate on this mass spectroscopy that you believe is the easiest method.

Take a sample to a lab, pay the money, get the analysis back. This is not something which can be done by a hobbyist. It requires specialist equipment.

I'm still waiting for you to show me the inconsistencies too.

Layton

[wasp]

What lab? How much will it cost?

[lduncan]

Let your fingers do the walking.

There are heaps of analytical labs around. I have no idea about the cost.

Alternatively some Universities will have appropriate equipment to carryout this type of test. So if you know anyone in a chemistry department, that may be an option.

Just have to search around for a facility with appropriate detection limits.

Layton

[Brianemone]

agriqual in auckland do iron tests, thats where we used to send our samples to be tested, costs a fair bit though

[chimera]

im almost tempted to throw a few bob towards it just to put this bullshit to rest...

[RnB]

Reef you observed the following

Someone must be able to test to see how must goes into the aquarium as one sign of overdosing iron is more algae in the tank and I have not noticed this. When I used to dose an iron supplement and put too much in I use to get lots of Algae all over the rock/glass and now when I add zeolite I don’t get any algae.

is it possible that the ammount of iron Zeovit leaches is as big as the direct iron supplement, however the zeovit free iron is more able to be bacterially used, ie so that the free iron (which i believe is allready trying to bind with phosphate) is more easily exported into the bacterial culture (i am thinking just size here, bacteria are huge compared with ions.....)

and once attached to bacteria they are exported via skimmate as the bacteria die off.......

i imagine carbon could also bind this bacteria or kill it, so that it goes out of the system in changed carbon/skimmate???

I am really starting to think that you must test not just the water , but rate of iron release in zeo AND iron in skimmate and carbon export....

just imagine if it leaches 100ug per day, but the uptake via bacteria is almost 100ug.... and there metabolism is highly regulated by iron....... in fact perhaps the bacteria are the feedback loop

Layton?

Wasp i believe that the article you have linked to on wetmedia tells most, maybe 70%, of the zeo story..... as you have been saying all the time...

It is very possible that in simply measuring the loss of iron from used zeolith that you ASSUME that is going straight into the water coloumn.... (this was how i believe the research was done, not a water coloumn test?)

What if there where bacteria living on the surface of the zeo that needed both phosphate ions and Fe irons to live and mulitply.... the iron has left the zeo but is bound with the bacteria now, and WILL not show on your water coloumn test!

wasp would be right, simply adding iron is not the answer... because perhaps zeo does not simply release riron, perhaps it is taken from the zeo bacterially!

[wasp]

Some good thinking in those last few posts.

[RnB]

well

lots of people have SEEN the zeo give off a white coloured bacterial looking "slime" during the pump backwash cycle... and they also observe that the corals seem to "FEED" on this (at least opening more as its realesead)

I postulate that the white slime bacteria are both feed to the corals (maybe a dosing of iron , you guys say how corals like iron but seemingly only up to the point that bacteria like it more then its bad for tank.... imagine corals geeting lots of iron to colour up blues etc... but it is not free, comes attached to bacteria, corals can use/eat but the free algae in the tank cannot touch!)

the only "problem" i have with this is the HUGE ammount of iron that the used tested zeolith lost on average per day.. I do not have any clue if the bialogical process i have postulated above could use that much Fe

????????? need big help her other wise theory out da door.