MAF Shake Up

[Kermit]

Has anyone heard anything more on the subject???

Come on importers keep us informed whats going on....

[scholesy]

SteveA - I like your crab idea provided it could do the following:

1. be happy sitting in an unmarked fan reading the newspaper while the camera in the back clicked people doing 57 kmh in a 50 zone,

2. never both to answet 111 calls, or at least divert them as far away from the emergency as possible,

3. regularly surf the net for dodgy images and then accept a slap on the claw with a wet bus ticket,

4. "independently" investigate claims of police abusing the public by using a team of, uh, police.

Now being a crab and therefore a decapod, I'm also assuming it could issue more than double the tickets, use two PCs to download simultaneously, and so on. You might be onto something by suggesting the crabs could be traffic officers or thereabouts...

(sorry everyone, a colleague just informed me on a traffic officer sitting on 70 in a 100kmh zone, sitting in the rightmost lane, with everyone backing up behind him and unable to "under"take on the left............)

[scholesy]

Note that crabs, like me, would be trerbbile typers.

Above: "fan" = "van", "answet" = "answer", and so on

[RnB]

It is pointless arguing about the hitch hikers if maf visit reef keeps and see large not allowed animals and it then transpires they came though "official" q sites.......

in fact, understand, even the illegal live rock import was by an "approved q site".

so the importers should step back and take a good look at themselves...

YOU ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF THESE ANIMALS / ROCK.

we as hobbiests should not be cross at MAF for enforcing the law

rather ask your importer what the h*ll they thought they where doing importing this stuff!!!!!

Its your choice... dont get greedy and stuff it up for us hobbists.....

[Pies]

RnB - Couldn't dissargee more. Importers, bring in as much dodgy stuff as you can please, thanks.

Pie

[cookie extreme]

get real people, its hobbyist like you and me who always want something new, or unusual pieces or LR (just look at how many would like to have some). if there is a demand there will always be a supply (be it legal or illegal). just like pies said if it isn't allowed in someone will smuggle it in.

to attack importers isn't fair not because they try to satisfy demand but also because the grey zone in this matter is pretty big. MAF themselves can't distingush between certain corals. not that long ago only very few corals were allowed in to NZ. petitions and long letters were written to maf to increase the allowed list (like clams, many leathers ans stonies).

this was done by importers to give hobbyists more choice in lifestock.

its like if we don't support LFS and they all close and in the end we get nothing in this country anymore that has to do with marines, who's fault would that be? The LFS for being "so"overly priced (hey ben at jansens likes his job) or the importers who sell "overpriced" lifestock to the LFS or maybe is it us for not supporting them??? it all comes down to demand.

if there is a demand then people will try to fill it. if not the present importers then newer ones. we shouldn't pass the bucket, lots has has bee written on this side especially about liferock etc. the same thing happend before with mushrooms, remember??

instread of attacking each other we should work together in trying to find a solution or the diversity and "new corals" will drop to rock bottom. some people may find that appealing as they have a full tank. but what about newcomers, people with tank wipeouts or just some loses? this way of thinking is very narrow minded ( in for a quick buck for as long as it lasts never mind what comes later).

so lets all at try to be on the same side - the marine aquarium hobby that is!!!!

[Aquagold]

Nice Call.

This is an interesting thread.....

[Kermit]

Shouldn't MAF fine the importer that is in question and pull their license instead of banning all importation this would put a mesage across to others if you try then be prepared to pay the Consequences, not punish everyone else cos of one importer.

Robert

[Travis & Vicki]

couple of points

1. the containers i have been carting from the wharf the last 3 days have all weighed between 24 and 29 ton

2. the paper worm in the hauraki gulf that has decimated large areas of shellfish and spawning grounds came from the bilge water of a ship from asia, the industry has had a shake up since those bad old days, but it dosnt fix the problems already caused. the luxary yachts can carry nasty hitch hikers also! and they are not the best with the sea "road rules" either

3. we all like to have unusual pieces in our tanks, but spare a thought to what we are leaving our children if they escape, look at the cane toad in queensland for a brilliant example, or even the gorse in the wellington hills

there are many arguements for and against

[reef]

so true, but what about all the damage that is done by overfishing and development.

More Damage is done by humans that anything else.

[Pies]

I agree, the planet is fuxored anyway. Lets just go hard while its still here.

Pie

[Brianemone]

i understand the ban on things like caluerpa taxifollia (sp). but lets take acro crabs for example are they on the approved list?? the crabs wont survive long out of the acro colony and the acro wont survive long in nz waters so there is no risk from them im no scientist but i dont think a lion fish would fare very well in our waters either

[Pies]

Lion Fish - P. Violitans are listed as an 'unusual' species for NZ coastal waters. There is 1 report of a single fish living in the poor knights, like many of the tropical/temprate fish that end up in the knights the chances of it surviving are slim to 0.

P. Violitans lives in the Kermadec islands, which is part of NZ. So technically they are already in the country naturally.

Interesting that both the Poor Knights and Kermadec islands are marine reserves. So the MAF ban on species that lives there (lionfish for example) just encourages poaching.

I would much rather buy a lionfish that came from the tropics through a Q facility with legit paperwork than know i've brought one that has been poached from a marine reserve. However MAF are encouraging people to poach buy having unreasonable rules. Why ban the importation of a common fish thats already here?

Pie

[RnB]

you are talking policy vs enforcement.........

until the schedule is changed the importers are breaking the law importing things not on it, I do understand that some things hitchhike in....

however there has also been some blatant ordering / importing of things not allowed.... The buck stops at the importer.. sorry guys but this MAF issue has been caused by an importer breaking the law to achieve a profit..... and I know its not just one person......!!!!!

we as a hobby need to push for the schedule to be changed if we feel it needs to be....

Individually we have no voice, which is why I and others have been forming an incorperated society so we have a formal avenue to meet and learn more about our hobby and how it works....

NZMAS (New Zealand Marine Aquarium Society) can actively lobby MAF for changes to be made... but its got to be logical and thought out... whining on about how unfair the rules are, without reading and understanding the research done by Niwa and others on the potential threat from ornamental imports is just going to see MAF treat us like a bunch of whining hobbists....

We all understand that there is no love lost between serveral people who import, but for once guys this may be a time where you have to make a stand as one voice for anything to change....

MAF is a government organisation, you must meet them and submit requests in a co-ordinated manner otherwise they will pay no attention to any of us!

I will dig up some links I found on the research done so far on ornamentals and the threat to the NZ environment and economy... if we are to press for change we must understand why MAF has the opionions/position that they hold now!

I also feel that it will be very hard for MAF to move anything in our favour at the moment, why would they trust the importers to enforce the new policy when there has been such blatant disregard for the old!

Don't kid yourselves here.... It is clear where the issues lie.

[Kermit]

I agree RnB.

But MAF should stand their ground with the importer/s in question and not the rest of the hobbiests/importers, fine those responsable, remove their license this would pull the rest into line would it not?

I'm not having a go at MAF but this is what they're there for to inforce the laws.

You dont see the police banning cars becuase of some hullagon killed someone while abusing the laws do you no usually they hit hard with fines and imprisonment to push a message across to others.

Robert

[chimera]

no usually they hit hard with fines and imprisonment to push a message across to others

hahaaaaa, thats the funniest thing i've heard in ages. in nzl they let you off with a smack on the wrist and a small fine - go the labour party,... not.

[Kermit]

Yeah i should have removed it :-? but what i'm trying to say MAF havent from what i see tried to inforce the law, they've just jumped straight into ban it all that'll stop it, mean while the importer/s have got away with it and have put the hobby in a bad possition.

Rob

[reef]

In terms of adding any new species is out of the question, unless you have endless cash to do the research that is required to get new species approved thru ERMA.

Spending money on new species would cost over $5000 per item so it will never be recovered as no one is making any real money selling these items.

I have already added the leathers/xenia to the allowable list at my own cost and this was a 2 year major project.

NO group can actively lobby MAF as it is pointless, MAF only enforce the law not set the law.

The problem we have in NZ is that no one is qualified to comment on anything to do with coral.

i think we need to appreciate what we got and live with it.

So far nothing has changed and just need to move on as too much information just blurs the lines of information provided to MAF.

[Kermit]

MAF only enforce the law not set the law.

Do they, have the importer/s been fined for their actions?

If so good, who are they?

[SteveA]

........... not that long ago only very few corals were allowed in to NZ. petitions and long letters were written to maf to increase the allowed list (like clams, many leathers ans stonies).

It was not that simple. It took an environmental impact assessment report (or something like that - can't remember the exact name). This took about 6 months to produce (and then another year to go thru the system - and it was a lot easier to do back then than it is now) and had to show the normal range for each animal (using a range map for each coral genus), demonstrate that this range did not include any waters that had temperatures that were found around the NZ coast (also taking season into account). It also had to include a list of each species within the genus (several hundred species in total), references to research material, biological descriptions that would allow the animal to be identified at the border, coverage of safety issues (for instance there is one species of acro still not allowed in as some literature referred to it as being poisonous and there was no other literature specifically countering this) and so on. The reason that so few soft corals were included at that time was the lack of biological descriptive material on the different species available back then.

How do I know this? Because I wrote the bloody thing (with a little help from Rolf Jansen - who supplied some reference material and some general constructive editorial criticism from a guy in MAF).

If MAF get pissed at people bringing stuff in thru the quarantine stations that should not be here they have the ability to make bringing anything in so administratively and logistically difficult that it will just stop happening. Sure, a bit of smuggling might take place but overall it would kill the hobby for new entrants and over time it would descend back into the dark ages it was in when I first started back in ’94.

Steve

[RnB]

MAF do have ability to fine, but there is a very defined process they have to go through and the offence almost has to be repeated before they have a shot at prosecution, and even then it would be cheaper and more effective just to pull that importers license.......

This is a warning letter..... which in some ways shows that its considered a low level offence... trust me if MAF thought a bio security breach could REALLY harm the NZ economy they would be all over the offender...

Lets all wake up to the fact that things could get worse..... if the impoters do not heed the warning a bigger stick will be used

IMPORTERS stick to the rules.....

Hobbiests, stop trying to get importers to sneak things in!

Reef, I know it will be hard and maybe cost money, but change is a given in this world....

does anyone else agree that we as a hobby need a co-ordinated voice, nationwide, that everyone can participate in?

[SteveA]

does anyone else agree that we as a hobby need a co-ordinated voice, nationwide, that everyone can participate in?

Yes but would it not be more effective done through FNZAS since that is a bigger organisation with, presumably, more clout (not that I actually belong to it myself).

Steve

[reef]

I think steveA has summarised it well and did a great job in giving me a hand.

Reef, I know it will be hard and maybe cost money, but change is a given in this world....

does anyone else agree that we as a hobby need a co-ordinated voice, nationwide, that everyone can participate in?

If you can fund it and have $5k plus to waste per species then go ahead I doubt anyone will part with any money as it will not be recovered.

Also there are other factors to consider as getting coral in the future is not a given due to the reefs being decimated.

I also doubt any coordination will make any difference as we just don’t have the expertises in NZ to help, and any more submissions will only open more questions for ERMA. and if it gets to hard they will just ban everything.

[RnB]

My post was about a single voice.. a club, a community not just new species....

At the moment I see serveral warring importers and a fragmented hobby with little natioanl focus apart from bitching at each other on this board.... yes commercial interests are at stake, get over it...

Importers bitch at each other

Hobbiests bitch at LFS

LFS keep heads low (how can they win by bitching.. good strategy)

Everyones bitching at MAF

It has been my experience on other forums (non fish ones) that once people meet face to face and are willing to listern to each other in there physical presense that a true community forms, and the flow on is a civil online community.....

I'm sorry but "this is as good as it gets......." is not good enough for me....

anyway I am sick of arguing about it, I have imported DVD's financed the incorporation of a society, rented venues and I just hope all you warring fractions can see that a hobbiest lead club might just make things better for EVERYONE......

Perhaps if the importers/LFS could stand sitting in front of each other they could respond to MAF with a common voice..... once again perhaps the importers need to first look at themselves, and ask how did we get to this point....

Reef - everyone appreciates the work you have done to increase species import schedule etc... but why did you have to do it alone... why not as part of a wider community who could share the costs and benefits....

Well we as hobbiests do share common nonfinancial interest, and I hope this is an opportunity to all come together and drag in all the people who hate these boards and the bitchiness... in fact I hope that in time 90% of the people out there who never post here turn up and contribute in a civalised club....

Ask yourself how many reef tanks are in NZ and how many people contribute here!

[reef]

Ask yourself how many reef tanks are in NZ

Not many.

There is no benefit for any one to approve more species etc as no one is making money to make it worth there while. If they were they would have added new species years ago.

This is as good as it gets, and it is way better than we have every had it.

Best is to wait and see what happens over the next 6-12 months after MAF have done a review. I understand most importers will be involved anyway.

If you read you local paper they are reviewing all imports of livestock and are also looking at the red ear turtle as it has been found living out west.