RnB Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 suphew - great post, sums it up....... Its a waste of time looking at all the display tanks in most shops, without being willing to spend the dosh that they cost to setup, can only end in tears. Its why at the budget car places they have all the nice autos out front, and the cheap stock in back..... hook the dreamer and close the deal! I would say that a minimum spend is $1000, but if you are looking at any of the $5k+ tanks that members on this site have... why are you so smart that you can do it for less? don't even dream it will look like them, I have over 150kg of rock in my TANK! DIY is cool and you can get some awesome results, but it STILL costs lots for the acrylic sheets, special blades etc etc...... I collect 3k worth of 2nd hand kit before I even added water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misnoma Posted April 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Okay.. i've watched this enough to get some kind of idea... So.. given I have a 4ft tank sitting here (430L, $160 new), and a stand (about $150 in parts + some elbow grease ) It seems to have a semi-successful and non-suck setup I should be looking at the following: A Sump - something like a 3ft tank which would fit inside my stand? (given the price I paid for the 4ft, it would probably cost ~$70-80 - won't need to be 10mm for a start) - Could someone sum up in 30 words or less the purpose of a sump other than increasing the water volume of the system? (or is that the whole idea?) Two or three powerheads - Michael suggested Aqua One ones on a budget - what else is there, or is there something more recommended? A skimmer - I saw another post where someone got a Deltec for ~$750, and another for $375 - what size would be suitable for my tank size? Being a freshwater person, skimmers are a nice foreign concept to me Piping of some sort from sump to main tank - and I'm guessing some holes cut in the main tank for this piping to go in? A pump to get water from sump up to main tank. Again, what is recommended/required here? Rock/sand/test kits etc etc etc are a given, as is livestock - however given you're going to want to cycle the tank before even thinking about livestock, this would be a suitable time to plan/save for said livestock, right? (i.e. initially you would want your rock/sand in the tank for cycling, but nothing else) From what I've read - 90% of you swear by having a sump/skimmer, so it seems like I would be silly not to consider this at the start, I understand it can be done without, but seems I would end up wanting them at some point anyhows. My "on a budget" comment was purely so people didn't come back with "well if you get this, this, this, this and this, you can have the great barrier right in your lounge for only $20k!" - because I do get the point that with saltwater the sky is pretty much the limit for spending Righty... hopefully that helps clear things up a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 SUMP - The first thing to remember is that a sump is WELL worth the effort, and its hard to image anyone reccomending not using one. With that out of the way the sump provides many advantages. Somewhere to store the heaters, filters, carbon, resins, thermomitors, skimmers and any other equipment. Sumps increase the overall amount of water in the system so its more water per livestock than is possible in the main tank. It keeps the water level in the main tank level at all times, evaporation will lower the sump water level, not the tank. This also means that water changes are much easier as you just remove water from the sump and replace water into the sump, far less disruptive to the stock and easier as the sump is typically lower. You can grow food in the sump (mysidd shrimp, copepods) and also grow calurpa or other alage to increase water stability. Water paramaters will be more stable as the water quantity increases. Somewhere to put stock thats being damaged by fish or corals to keep it alive long enough to figure out what to do with it. The return from the sump creates water movement and most configurations (durso overflow systems) remove the film of the top of the water, increasing airation and light penentration. For people like me it means I can have my sump in a different room (the remote sump setup) so I don't have to do messy water changes and water tests in my lounge and drip saltwater through the house. Phew, thats mostly it. Sumps are good. Powerheads - not so important to begin with, just use anything you have (old pumps) or choose your path. Buy good quality stuff now and never replace it, or buy cheap now knowing they won't last. Easy enough to change later. Yes cut holes. I can help with the design of the overflow system, have build 5 now, all have worked out brilliantly. Return pump from the sump. BIGGER is better. Look at an Ehiem 1260 or better. Lots of 2nd hand ones around for $120 or less. Rock and cycling. Everyones opnion will change, the bottom line is the longer you wait the better. I would look at 3 months if you can handle the wait, others will have different opnion. One thing for sure, the cycle in saltwater is much harsher than in freshwater, its different so beware. Budget - You can do it on a budget, and I don't want to quote numbers. If you are prepared to spend 2k, you will get a good setup that should have long term success and the ability to keep a wide arangement of life. Use a skimmer. DIY is fine, often DIY can offer better results than store brought, but beware, the internet has brought prices right down, I have used little DIY as with the NZ dollar at the moment its just easier to spend the cash. YMMV. Good luck Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I can't be bothered with this. The whole idea was to show a list of everything that people could and/or would try to do, and show a basic cost Then we would do a small write up for each stating the problems associated with each set-up. I have stated this from the start. If you all seriously believe that it would not be of benefit to show the cheaper possibilities and the problems associated with them on a list of set-ups then I believe you all need to have a serious think about what you are talking about. So far there have only been about 5 intelligent replies. The rest is all pointless rubbish. Why are you people arguing about this? If you do a set-up list it should cover everything weather it works well or not. If not why bother doing it in the first place. Aaron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I can't be bothered with this. Then drop it. So far there have only been about 5 intelligent replies. The rest is all pointless rubbish. I would say its very un-cool to say that what people are writing is rubish or unintelligent. Because if I was going to point the un-intelligent rubish finger, it would be pointed directly at your $500.00 marine tank theory. If you do a set-up list it should cover everything weather it works well or not. Personally I am only interested in helping people who want to setup something that works and works well. If you want reccomend a system that will work poorly but be cheap, continue the way your going. It seems the difference between you and everyone else is we all want to help a new hobbist setup a successful system, you however seem bent on proving that you can keep a pair of clowns in a bowl and that is a satisfactory setup. Somewhere else on this board you made comments about they way you have been treated. Looking at what you just wrote I would say that you deserve everything you get, in spades. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Why are you people arguing about this? most of us are in agreement that for a beginner its better to start as explained. its pointless to reccomend substandard approaches to a hobby that involves living things no wait not pointless cruel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 no wait not pointless cruel Well thats the nail on the head ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 opps, can't delete my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I would say its very un-cool to say that what people are writing is rubish or unintelligent Sorry I just thought I'd use the same terms that people have used towards me. Because if I was going to point the un-intelligent rubish finger, it would be pointed directly at your $500.00 marine tank theory. Then show it and state the problems with it so people can see it when they look at the list. Is that really that hard to understand. Personally I am only interested in helping people who want to setup something that works and works well. If you want reccomend a system that will work poorly but be cheap, It may be of benifit to you if you go back to the start of this post and read it properly. It seems the difference between you and everyone else is we all want to help a new hobbist setup a successful system What part of my previous reply did you not understand. Then we would do a small write up for each stating the problems associated with each set-up. Then we would do a small write up for each stating the problems associated with each set-up. Then we would do a small write up for each stating the problems associated with each set-up. Then we would do a small write up for each stating the problems associated with each set-up. I beleave this has been stated already so people can understand why. Somewhere else on this board you made comments about they way you have been treated. Looking at what you just wrote I would say that you deserve everything you get, in spades. I find it interesting how all of the private emails that I have received from people in this forum don't agree with you and seem to be as frustrated as I am with this post. you however seem bent on proving that you can keep a pair of clowns in a bowl and that is a satisfactory setup And it's been running with an air driven carbon filter for over four years without any stock loss. Whats your point. How much stock has been lost by people running the big expensive systems which I also have. And how much have you lost in the last for years. Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I find it interesting how all of the private emails that I have received from people in this forum don't agree with you and seem to be as frustrated as I am with this post. hahahahaha. Its funny the PMs and emails i've got about this post too. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 hi control, why don't you just get your stuff together and post pictures of your tanks, including the one that belongs to your daughter!! please don't give any excuses why that is not possible. a picture will tell us so much more then "your experience". please don't take any offence to this. cheers c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 you however seem bent on proving that you can keep a pair of clowns in a bowl and that is a satisfactory setup And it's been running with an air driven carbon filter for over four years without any stock loss. Whats your point. How much stock has been lost by people running the big expensive systems which I also have. And how much have you lost in the last for years. When I hear 'marine tank' I think of a FO system - in other words just water and just fish. Nothing else. When I hear 'reef tank' I think of LR, corals, fish etc I don't have any reservation that a 'marine tank' (or should I say marine bowl ) with 2 clown fish, a basic air-driven filter and nothing more could easily be done for $500. However, I think what we are all saying here is if you are a BEGINNER then it is seriously not recommended, I will explain why... Because it sounds like you have been in the hobby for quite sometime, is it fair to say that the knowledge of knowing how to keep these clown fish and their environment happy is based on your experience thus far? Do you truly believe the average Joe off the street (and thus 'a beginner') is going to know how to ensure the survival of clown fish in a small tank straight off the bat? If they put seawater and a clownfish in a bowl, then started learning, I'd give the clown fish 20% chance of survival. IF the beginner is does their research first and is highly dedicated - alot higher. The reason I ask is I have seen SO many people who cant even keep a GOLDFISH alive let alone anything that lives in saltwater. The biggest difference we are all arguing over is.. WHAT SORT OF SALTWATER TANK are we talking about? FO, FOWLR or REEF? As an example, and as RnB stated above I also have 150kg of LR in my system, @ $10/kg that's $1,500 worth of ROCK - let alone a $1,500 skimmer etc I would not start a reef tank without LR and a skimmer. There's $3k (depending on size of tank of course, smaller tank would need 1/4 of this but that's still $800.) Do we all agree the smallest tank for starting out is 3 foot (or about 120 litres?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Just a question control, I'm not trying to wind you up. I believe YOU can easierly run a little standalone tank with a couple of clowns in it, but you have (I asumme) a few hundred liters of clean stable water in your main tank to use for regurlar large percentage water changes plus (I also assume) a few years of expericence with marine. Dont you agree that it would be difficult for someone without the benifit of all this to run such a setup long term? Isn't the point of this posting to advise a beginner the best, safest, most cost effective (NO not cheapest) way to get started?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 How much stock has been lost by people running the big expensive systems which I also have. And how much have you lost in the last for years. I am bellow the 40 a year average that reef posted the other day Pieola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 To get this posting back on track, Misnoma why dont you update your location (through I wouldn't blame you if your scared now :lol:) I'm sure who ever is local to you will happierly show off their setup, which is the best way to get an idea of what you want to do therefore giving you an idea of costs. If your anywhere near Wellington, PM me and we can arrange a visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 misnoma, by your response above it appears that you have successfully passed the first test in this hobby... crap filtering. Congratulations Looks like you're on the right track. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Can someone please tell me what my abilities have got to do with showing a small cheap system and the problems that peolple will have trying to run them on a list of possible set-ups, has got to do with each other. I am sick of being repeatedly attacked on this matter by people who want to tell people not to start a small system yet for some reason object to puting it in writing on a list of set-ups. Before anyone decides to have a go at me for talking about what I have done myself I would remind you that I never raised the issue in this post without it being in defence of someone making an issue of it. The fact that I can keep small systems running has got nothing to do with this post and is completly off topic. Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 ... yet for some reason object to puting it in writing on a list of set-ups. The reason is because it's pointless, incomplete, and completely unrelated to what someone who is starting out in this should be doing. Simple as that really. Before anyone decides to have a go at me for talking about what I have done myself I would remind you that I never raised the issue in this post without it being in defence of someone making an issue of it. ???? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie extreme Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 you constantly refuse to show any! thats any! picture of your tanks. never mind how small they may be!!!! to give constant advice to people without showing anything you have done will not get any results. i might not agree with some people on this forum for many reasons but have to say that they have a valid piont. so again please show us any picture with your system. i hope you because otherwise you will loose even more creditability(how the heck do you spell that). again this is not a personal attack so please don't take it as one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I listed everything I think you need to build a tank, regardless of size its pretty much the same, small tank = small skimmer less rock, large tank = big skimmer more rock. I am with Layton, I see no point in listing a configuration that wont work, and suspect most people what to know how to do thing correctly, not how to do them wrong. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I am with Layton, I see no point in listing a configuration that wont work, and suspect most people what to know how to do thing correctly, not how to do them wrong. Then show it, and tell them why it has problems in the write up for that tank What you have just suggested will not stop people from trying it. Is this not obvious? Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Go back to page 1. Reasoning for recommended minimum tank size, and equipment are explain there. No need to itemise a list of substandard equipment with prices, only to explain how it would be substandard for a beginner. Surely the logical thing would be to give a minimum recommendation for a successful beginner reef, explaining why items have been selected. Funnily enough much like how this thread started, before this rubbish. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 Layton That’s 1 suggestion. The idea was for everyone to have an opinion including the beginners. Instead of putting opinions with reasons forward most of you have attacked my tanks instead without properly explaining why you should not show the systems and why they go wrong It appears that I am considered a lyre here, guilty until proven innocent. I have taken photos and will try to post them. Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 I give up, there are some people that i'll just never be able to work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 How do I add pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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