Basic Setup Needs for a Marine Tank

[Control]

That could be a problem, you can’t just keep adding base rock as it will pollute the tank. best to do it all at once.

Come on reef everyone does that, one if not two pieces at a time without any problems are you telling me that I can't put any more in my tank without completely starting over.

Layton

Why can you not understand that there is a need for information on all tanks regardless to what your opinion is?

Do you really think that providing them with the information of cost and problems related to all possible set-ups so they can see the advantage of one system compared to another and try to do the best they can with their budget is something that should be kept away from people.

I don't see why you think this is rubbish and seem to find it so hard to comprehend.

Everyone

Blurting out your opinions is not going to get this finished. Put any problems that may arise in the systems that people come up with in a list and state which one it is for so they can be debated properly before they are added to the list of each system.

The issue of stock and rock.

I believe that the price of stock should not be added to the set-up cost for the following reasons:

It is added after the set-up is put together.

It is a progressive thing that can have too much variation in size, quantity and price.

I believe the price of rock should not be added because;

It may or may not be added all at once depending on budget.

There is too much price variation with different types of rock.

Not all systems will have it or need it.

Please note so no one misquotes me that I said the price should not be added not eventual quantities that would be needed.

I take it that every one that thinks there is no place for small tanks with a couple of fish in it believe that my two and a half year old daughters tank that she has in her bedroom which has never failed or killed anything and is very easy to maintain should be replaced with a $3000-$4000 dollar tank.

Hhmmm I will have to work out a way to attach her bed to the roof so I can fit the new tank in there.

That seems like allot of money to spend on someone that age.

Aaron.

[Brianemone]

i would spend all my money on my child if i had to, it comes down to love i think

but back to the subject, i dont think the price of the tank should be included or salt mix or test kits or electricity or filter or this or that

the fact is that the suggestion was to put a list of reccomended items for any starting a marine tank, and the majority of us reccomend skimmer with lots of rock, you can plead your case all you want but it doesnt change the fact that its the veiw of a minority

[Aquatopia]

I have a 4x2x2ft tank - and one of the options for it (somewhat remote, but I want to explore it anyway) is to try a marine setup.

So.. What hardware does one need for such a setup? Budget is a consideration, however not a limitation from doing things right (if that makes sense)

Can I just remind everyone that the above quote was the basic question involved in the commencement of this thread. Surely therefore, that is what we should be addressing in our answers.

I know it also mentioned a "begginers guide" but since we are getting so many different opinions (and the fact they are based on different assumptions this is causing argument rather than anything else).

Maybe this thread should concentrate on the specifics in the above quote. There could then be alternative "beginners" threads;-

1) For those who want a small tank, a couple of (small and suitable) fish, a correct amount of live rock for filtration and the other essential basics.

2) For those who want the next stage up (may be several stages)

3) For those who want a full reef set up with fish, corals, and all the necessary equipment that that involves.

And for those (retailers and otherwise) worried about "scaring" people with high cost advice. Bear this in mind. Your advice MUST cover specifics. Sure, tell them they could start small with two fish a-la the two year olds bedroom tank, but they have to know thats ALL that money will get them. You have, also to be honest and say - "But if you want to do a 4'x2'x2' mixed reef aquarium that is running properly and beneficially to its inhabitants then its going to cost thousands"

And if you are worried that the thought of spending thousands will discourage people - then I would say they are not the right people to be in the hobby in the first place. Those who are genuinely keen will either have the money (lucky them, and im including the ones who can do it for less by having the brains and ingenuity to source certain items more cheaply than are available from the usual sources), or they will save until they have the money to enter the hobby at the level they want to be.

Or, they will thank you for your honesty and adjust the level of the hobby they want/can afford to be at. Give them a range, and tell them the variables within that range. Then let them make their own mind up.

It is a known fact that more people try and leave the hobby through failure (sadly often through bad advice) than who would choose not to do it in the first place. Information is only valuable if it is COMPLETE.

But I digress. The point of this posting of mine was to remind us what the initial questions' specifics were, and to suggest the all the other levels be looked at separately.

Hope this helps... :-?

[Pies]

I think part of the 'problem' and the reason why people get so personal has to do with 'responsibility'. Someone said somewher you could get a couple of clownfish and put them into a bowl and keep them alive. Maybee. I think the killer for most of us is we find this kind of thing offensive.

I hate seeing the 'nemo' tanks in pet stores for this very reason.

Where is IRA? IRA started a marine tank on a mega budget, and has done everything within his power to contain his costs. I know origionally he wanted and thought he could do it for under $500 (excluding stock). Be interested to know where his spending is at, I know its over $1k.

Talk about not running a skimmer. The bottom line is that any advice from anyone to a beginner to not use a skimmer is bad advice. Now I am well aware that you can run a tank without one, infact I would like to see this become the norm (they are so damn expensive), but skimmerless tanks are best left to experts. I doubt anyone would dissagree with me on that.

Price - I personally think its good to see people scaring people off about the cost of things. Even if the numbers are wrong its a good way to prep people, and if the price does scare them off, better that than killing the animals and getting frustrated with the hobby anyway. I know my own example is'nt a good one as I have invested heavly in my own setup, but my friends and people I know from this board have all spent a lot on their tank, and single spends of $500+ are not all that uncommon.

What I don't like: I don't like the attitude of 'buy the minimum now' add stock, then add the other stuff later. If you are not reccomending things like: TANK, FRESH WATER SUPPLY, ROCK, SKIMMER, TEST KITS (PH, KH, NITRATE minimum), Refractomoter/hydrometer, LIGHTING, CIRCULATION PUMPS, TIMERS, HEATER, SALTWATER SUPPLY, BUCKETS, JERRY CANS, NETS, FILTER WOOL, FROZEN FISH FOOD, THERMOMOTOR before the addition of live stock you deserve critisisim.

Let the potentioal aquairust understand the costs and the complications first. If they accept them, then do what you can to help them spend there money as wisley as possible. If they don't accept them, at least you have stopped someone from wasting money on something that is mostly likely going to be a failure.

Rock MUST be added to the cost of the tank setup, its an important key to the success of a tank using rock as its primary source of biological filteration, as important as a filter would be in a freshwater tank or an engine in a race car.

Stock - You are going to have to spend money on it, doesn't matter if you factor it in or not, you will have to spend money on it so why not show this up-front. Not many sub $150.00 yellow tangs out there.

Pie

[magnus1]

LOL! I saw the title of this thread & thought "cool, some straightforward answers on what I need to set up my first saltwalter tank." All I got was a headache... buggar! A list of equipment within certain budgets would be extremely helpful to beginners like me though. Is this still going to happen, or have peoples pride been dented too much? A shame really.

Michelle

[Control]

i would spend all my money on my child if i had to, it comes down to love i think

For some people a two foot tank system would be all of there money and I don't think they should be denied the information on how to set up a system that will work that they can afford because people think that they should keep out of the hobby if they can't afford to spend thousands of dollars.

I'm sorry but I don't believe in discrimination and there is no need for it in this hobby, small systems are easy to maintain if they are done properly.

Aaron

[Pies]

I'm sorry but I don't believe in discrimination and there is no need for it in this hobby

Discrimination? Really? I would like to race Ferrari's and fly jets, is it discrimination becaue I can't afford to do so? Pffffft.

small systems are easy to maintain if they are done properly.

Not sure if I agree with this statement, everything I have read has pointed out that small systems are very challenging, havn't done one myself as it sounds too hard. That aside, is it possible to do it properly without spending some money (refer to my list of equipment above), and by some money I am talking about well over $1,000.00.

Pie

[chimera]

Michelle - the big issue with marine/reef tanks is there is never a straight-forward answer. There are so many different theories and ways of keeping a marine tank, each has its positives and negatives. You can skimp now and buy 'budget' equipment although as Pies says, it will be painful in the long run. No matter what anyone says, it will cost you a minimum of $3k to setup a SUCCESSFUL marine/reef tank. Any less and you will run into problems and end up costing you so much more to protect your already spent investment. Being a beginner, most tend to learn as they go (and thus learn by their mistakes - a costly way to go, but unfortunately the best way in some cases)

As you can appreciate, it is difficult to provide a costing of what you would need. Everyone can provide approximates but the sky (or ocean ) is the limit. Let's just say from $3k to $20k+, depending on size of tank and what you are keeping, depending on 2nd hand or brand new goods, depending on methodology of reef keeping (berlin method is recommended by most), type of fish and/or corals you are keeping, etc etc.

The saying goes "it's cheaper to keep a horse than a marine tank" - funny because it's true.

Read as much as you can now - it will save you money in the long run. Not just this site, use the whole Internet and books as resource. You will even find differing opinions between renown authors. Stay open minded and dont take everything you read as gospel!

[Pies]

Chimera - Well put and about right. I would be astonished if you could set-up a tank for long-term success for less than 3k (exclusive of stock). I've seen people try, but they either give up because they don't have the money to see it through or give up when it crashes.

Observation - Myself & Chimera arn't in this 'selling' business, we offer advice because we think its right based on our own experance. I often feel bad because I am always giving Chimera a hard time about the way he does things. However remember that there is nothing in it for us, we are not selling equipment or livestock, we are just being friendly and offering adivce that we think is right. No disrespect to the store owners intended, but this is often the worse place to start.

Take your time, ask lots of questions, belive what you want to belive, ignore the rest.

Pie

[chimera]

:lol: but I still value your advice Pies

The best way I think I can put this is.

"Setting up a successful marine/reef tank will be more expensive if you are a beginner"

The reason I say it this way is if you are an expert, you:

- Obviously know what you are doing so can do away with luxury items, or even DIY some of the necessary items because you know how they work

- Know how water chemistry is altered so can experiment more with alternate methods whilst still maintaining a suitable environment for your tank inhabitants

- Wont get sucked into buying unnecessary items from potential greedy LFS staff (and dont say it doesn't happen)

- Are likely to have contacts in the hobby who can source you 2nd hand items cheap or free

Still, even an expert can spend heaps. The difference is whether the expert chooses to spend lots or not. Another way of putting it is:

"The more you spend on (appropriate) quality items now, the less expensive it will be in the long run"

By "appropriate", I mean spending the larger portion of your budget on the important items (eg: skimmer, live rock) After all, water chemistry is the home your tank inhabitants live in - if you don't look after this, then you might as well not have a reef tank at all.

[Control]

chimera

Thankyou

[Control]

I think part of the 'problem' and the reason why people get so personal has to do with 'responsibility'. Someone said somewher you could get a couple of clownfish and put them into a bowl and keep them alive. Maybee. I think the killer for most of us is we find this kind of thing offensive.

I made that statement with the addition of a filter system and means of keeping it healthy that was more than adequate and would work.

I was clearly trying to make a simple point.

I hate seeing the 'nemo' tanks in pet stores for this very reason.

Do you hate seeing goldfish in small bowls when they swim in large area's of water in there natural environment or do you hate it when you see Nemo's in small tanks when the majority of the time they would normally stay within the confines of there anemone.

Talk about not running a skimmer. The bottom line is that any advice from anyone to a beginner to not use a skimmer is bad advice. Now I am well aware that you can run a tank without one, infact I would like to see this become the norm (they are so damn expensive), but skimmerless tanks are best left to experts. I doubt anyone would dissagree with me on that.

Correct however

A fish only tank can easily run without a skimmer if the stock is kept to the correct level and regular water changes are made, and this is easy for a beginner on a low budget that has access to the ocean.

Why should people that can only afford this method be excluded from the information that we can provide?

Do you really think that is necessary and fear?

What I don't like: I don't like the attitude of 'buy the minimum now' add stock, then add the other stuff later. If you are not reccomending things like: TANK, FRESH WATER SUPPLY, ROCK, SKIMMER, TEST KITS (PH, KH, NITRATE minimum), Refractomoter/hydrometer, LIGHTING, CIRCULATION PUMPS, TIMERS, HEATER, SALTWATER SUPPLY, BUCKETS, JERRY CANS, NETS, FILTER WOOL, FROZEN FISH FOOD, THERMOMOTOR before the addition of live stock you deserve critisisim.

Good points has anyone else got an opinion here.

We obviously have to come to a decision on this because it will affect the entire layout.

My opinion

I think that we could make things very complicated if we aren't careful.

What we show must be necessary but not over the top. We need to find a good balance.

Let the potentioal aquairust understand the costs and the complications first. If they accept them, then do what you can to help them spend there money as wisley as possible. If they don't accept them, at least you have stopped someone from wasting money on something that is mostly likely going to be a failure.

This is what my suggestion was for in the first place.

Give them the info. Put a small write up with each regarding the problems and benefits associated with that type of system and tell them what would be best for that type of system.

So far the majority of replies have done nothing toward this but confuse the issue.

Telling people that you have to spend thousands of dollars because it will make the system more stable doesn't tell them anything that they need to know and is completely pointless. They need all of the info so they can do there best with what they can afford.

It is their decision to make not the people in this forum.

Rock MUST be added to the cost of the tank setup, its an important key to the success of a tank using rock as its primary source of biological filteration, as important as a filter would be in a freshwater tank or an engine in a race car.

Ok but that is dependent on if they want rock in the system.

Does anyone else have an opinion here?

Stock - You are going to have to spend money on it, doesn't matter if you factor it in or not, you will have to spend money on it so why not show this up-front. Not many sub $150.00 yellow tangs out there.

We need more opinions on this too, anyone else.

My opinion

It could be done but as a separate list for each set-up, and it should be mentioned that it is by no means accurate.

Stock - You are going to have to spend money on it, doesn't matter if you factor it in or not, you will have to spend money on it so why not show this up-front. Not many sub $150.00 yellow tangs out there.

This is why I think it should be separate if we do list it there are to many possibilities and variations.

Surely a rough list of the type of suitable inhabitants and advice to check prices and availability with their local store would be better.

magnus1

LOL! I saw the title of this thread & thought "cool, some straightforward answers on what I need to set up my first saltwalter tank." All I got was a headache... buggar! A list of equipment within certain budgets would be extremely helpful to beginners like me though. Is this still going to happen, or have peoples pride been dented too much? A shame really.

Bare with us something intelligent that will help everyone will come of this I hope. I'm beginning to regret that I suggested we do this.

Aaron.

[chimera]

A fish only tank can easily run without a skimmer if the stock is kept to the correct level and regular water changes are made, and this is easy for a beginner on a low budget that has access to the ocean.

We need to make reference to "Fish Only" and "Reef" tanks separately here. There is a huge difference in regards to water chemisty between 'minimum' requirements of each. Then again, it differs even furthur when you look at a reef tank and compare requirements of softies, lps and sps too.

I think we can assume we're all talking about a reef tank with mixture of soft and LPS/SPS corals and a few fish?

[chimera]

Telling people that you have to spend thousands of dollars because it will make the system more stable doesn't tell them anything that they need to know and is completely pointless. They need all of the info so they can do there best with what they can afford

I don't believe this to be pointless - it needs to be included. It's always nice to know an approx range of how much you will be spending if 1. setting up FO, 2. setting up basic reef tank with softies, 3. full on sps tank etc etc. Sure, just to say 'thousands and thousands' does not give anyone a clue! Expand on it

[Control]

I'm trying to cover everything and everyone with this.

The problem is that people aren't replying in a maner which defines the system they are refering to when they make there coments and some of them are just pointless.

People need to stop talking about systems that haven't been listed if you must do so list the system first so there is a referance point for everyone else to put there opinion foward

Everyone

Can we please get the system lists up so they can be discussed.

I don't believe this to be pointless - it needs to be included. It's always nice to know an approx range of how much you will be spending if 1. setting up FO, 2. setting up basic reef tank with softies, 3. full on sps tank etc etc. Sure, just to say 'thousands and thousands' does not give anyone a clue! Expand on it

This is my very point.

The list will have quotes telleng people what is best in the system and the problems accociated with the systems.

Would this not sort that problem out.

Every time it is metioned it tends to be accumponied with "you can't keep tank for less than a certain amount". there are either no spacifics mentioned or they seem to think that the only form of marine tank that can exist is a $4000 and above Sps tank.

This is not true and not very helpful.

Aaron.

[Ira]

Where is IRA? IRA started a marine tank on a mega budget, and has done everything within his power to contain his costs. I know origionally he wanted and thought he could do it for under $500 (excluding stock).

Originally my budget was $1000. At the time I blew that by maybe $100 or so but had a fish only like I was aiming for with a skimmer that was probably overkill. Of course, my goal only stayed a fish only for something like 9 months, now it's a basic soft coral/LPS tank. (That needs more fish, soft corals and LPS!)

[Control]

Ira

Did you find the progression from one to the other benificial in your learning. Do you think that the knowledge you learn't from one helped you with the other.

Aaron.

[Drifty]

how do most people get into this hobby. I know my first tank started as a fish only with some live rock, and has slowly changed to a reef over the last 4 years.

How did everyone else start, as fish only or straight into a reef???

[Ira]

Ira

Did you find the progression from one to the other benificial in your learning. Do you think that the knowledge you learn't from one helped you with the other.

I'd say so. At the very least given the difficulty of buying fish locally it forced me to be more patient...

[chimera]

freshwater for 8 years, got bored of it. always wanted marine, bought a 4 foot partly established tank off trademe then the bug hit me...!

[Pies]

Freshwater for about 17 years (with a 4 year break somewhere near the middle). Enjoyed the technical aspect and the challenge of growing plants and the whole ecosystem of a tank.

Went into a full blown SPS dominated tank, spent over 9 months planing (and saving!) for it. Lots of help during the period from Reef & JetSkiSteve (still friends back then!).

Personally I enjoy the coral and biology more than the fish, hence my lighter than normal fish load.

Pie

[Control]

Discrimination? Really? I would like to race Ferrari's and fly jets, is it discrimination becaue I can't afford to do so? Pffffft.

Fortunately there are cheaper alternative that millions of people all over the world use every day with great success.

Gee that sounds familiar.

[jetskisteve]

still are!! (insert face with tears)

[petplanet]

So why not go hardware only pricings - $500, $1000, $2000+ (tanks, pumps, heaters, lights,skimmers etc)

in tank sizes - 3ft, 4ft, 5ft+

Approximate non livestock, deco for each size (rocks,sand)

Additional equipment - test kits, hydrometers, fish food, gravel cleaners, books, RCD's, timers etc.

Base on general retail prices because that is what most people will pay. Disclaimers for DIY or import to save $$$.

Budget Beginners 3ft System under $500(recommended fish only or fish and hardy corals)

3ft 180litre tank 90x45x45 $100.00

300W Heater $25-$40

Twin 3ft Light Fitting $120.00 (Aqua One which comes with freshwater tubes)

2 x Power Glo Tubes $60.00

2 x Powerheads $120.00 (Budget Aqua Ones)

Deco

2x4kg bags coral sand $40

10kg coral rock $100

Basic additional equipment:

Saltwater Master Test Kit - Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate around $70.00 (Aquarium Pharmacuticals)

Hydrometer/ Thermometer around $14

Gravel cleaner $14

Multi Board $10 (RCD would be better but its all about $$$, are you all using them?)

Book $25 (Barrons Saltwater Aquarium)

Hardware $440.00

Deco: $140.00

Additional Equipment: $133

Total spend around: $713.00

Recommend improvements after initial setup or changes keeping budget in mind? Freshys making the change to the dark side would already have some equipment such as hang on externals, cannisters, U/G that they could reuse. This is a basic, budget, entry level setup. Costs as much as my first car!

[suphew]

What about all the other small items you would need for this setup, nets, water containers, PH buffer, phos-sorb, carbon, plumbing bits, fish food, glass cleaner, grabber, salt (?) etc etc. Each of thses ideas would average about $20-$30 retail so you need to add another $250.

I don't think its fair to say to someone yeah you can setup a tank for $500, which they save for and then find that they get an empty tank and have to spend another couple of hundred to put water into it. then on top of that another$100 plus for a fish or two.

We need to be able to say, to have a complete setup with a couple of average/cheap fish and EVERYTHING you need for the short term (ie first couple of months so they have time to save for the next round of stuff they'll need) will cost you this.

Please are you ready to put the $500 tank to rest, I think petplanet has conviningly proved that a "Budget Beginners 3ft System under $500(recommended fish only or fish and hardy corals)" actually costs more like $1000.

Also please note, I'm not saying I would agree with recommending anyone run a setup like this, I would like to at least see a small skimmer added to this system, plus I think it is too limiting and that few people would be able to keep this without wanting to add a few corals etc after a very short time. So would involve upgrading most of the setup making it a waste of money.