Basic Setup Needs for a Marine Tank

[misnoma]

I may be opening a pandoras box by asking this, but I will because it's something I don't know, and will ask ;-)

I have a 4x2x2ft tank - and one of the options for it (somewhat remote, but I want to explore it anyway) is to try a marine setup.

So.. What hardware does one need for such a setup? Budget is a consideration, however not a limitation from doing things right (if that makes sense) I think it would be a good thing for the saltwater forum to have anyway for beginners - kind of like a "basic startup guide" type thing - at least from a hardware point of view.

So. What hardware (pumps/filters/skimmers etc) would I need? Do I need to run a sump? How do I cycle a marine tank? all the general beginner questions.

Now I know I'm asking a lot, and I could probably find out over the net through hours of reading etc etc, however I've seen some incredible tanks from members of this site, and am far more inclined to believe what I read here (so long as it's not a discussion on tank additives ) than trying to filter out what is correct or not on the wider internet. So if you could indulge me it would be fantastic.

[cracker]

First off you need to decide whether you want to spend anywhere from $2000.00 up to more like $3500.00.

Once you have made that decision we can help you from there!!

No matter hoe good a deal you get your equipment from, this hobby is expensive, (Depending on what YOU call expensive).

[misnoma]

I'm somewhat aware of the costs (in fact, the last comment I heard was "it's cheaper to keep a horse" ) and yeah, it's something I can deal with.

It would just be good to have an idea of what is required for a tank like that - especially for myself and others who are considering the idea.

[lduncan]

Well the tank size you have suggested is adequate for someone starting out. Not too small that water parameters change faster than you can keep up, not to big to be unwieldy, or too expensive.

Marine tank filtration consists of two main components;

1. Skimmer. This uses small air bubbles to attract waste which are "skimmed" off as a foam. Deltec brand skimmers have a virtually flawless reputation. Once you get to the stage of choosing a skimmer brand, post here and people will give you their opinions on it's quality.

2. Live rock. This is the core of the biological filtration. Bacteria within the pores of the rock, provide an environment where nitrate is reduced.

Lighting

This depends on what you want to keep.

Fish Only tank, fluro tubes will be fine.

Reef tank, with corals etc will require metal halide.

Metal halide lit tanks to me look cleaner and more natural, so i would be using metal halide lights on any type of marine tank.

If you want to keep coral, then for a 4x2x2 i would say two 250Watt halides would be middle of the road.

Sump

I wouldn't consider building a tank without one. Too much large equipment takes up room and looks ugly in the tank.

Cycling a tank is real, and unlike with freshwater, if you add too many fish too soon you are guaranteed deaths. Generally it takes at least 6 weeks for the initial cycle to die down to a point where it is safe to add fish, however a tank can take more than 6 months to stabilise and will go through different stages of algae and diatom growth, which will die away given time.

Also, you probably should speed hours reading stuff on the internet. It will give you a better feel for what your in for, of course take everything you read with a grain of salt

Layton

[misnoma]

Thanks Iduncan - that's what I was looking for. I guessed the tank was large enough to be more stable - that works for freshwater too heh.

I have been reading on the net - hell, what else does an IT geek do at work lol

So really I guess what I'm looking for is "what's different from freshwater".. it seems you can cycle without fish (and should do)?

If anything I'm digging a little here because I think the site would benifit from peoples opinions on what should be done for a beginner - I have read on the net, but as I said.. opinions here matter more, and I think this would be beneficial to others

[Brianemone]

one difference in time.

patience is very important. the problem with asking the question youve asked is that their are so many opinions as to what is the best way to run a marine tank.

imo the easiest way is the Berlinesk method. thats what most people use with their own little difference's

skimmer with live rock is the essence of the idea

depending on how big the tnak as to how much rock you need and how big your skimmer needs to be

[lduncan]

what's different from freshwater?

1. Don't use canister filters for mechanical or biological filtration

2. Don't use wet/dry filters

3. Don't use undergravel filters

all for the same reason really. They speed up the nitrification process, by providing aerobic surfaces for bacteria. This should be left to live rock, because, unlike these other methods, it also has the ability to reduce the nitrate back to nitrogen gas at deeper depths within pores where oxygen levels are lower and the environment is more suitable. The above methods can not do this.

The general principle should be, get as much crap out as possible before it decays (skimmer). Then leave the rest to the live rock.

Also just on cycling. You need to have some source of waste to kick the biological processes off. I would recommend feeding the tank even though there may be no fish, it will provide the food required by bacteria to build their populations.

Layton

[Control]

Maybe we should start a thread that could be edited to make it as understandable as posible for people who want to go marine. it could be called "How to set up a Marine tank" or something like that.

And make it a permanent sticky.

Does anyone else think this would be a good idea.

Aaron.

[chimera]

brilliant idea and thought of the same thing when i saw this post. perhaps we should write a summary, then have the next person copy and paste it and modify or add to it. once finished, have everyone agree on a final and have it as a sticky!

[Control]

First we need more people on board

We should probably have a free for all and then Debate what should go were. it won't be done quickly and shouldn't be.

I think it would be best to do Three; Fish only, Simple reef and Advanced reef.

We must include links as well.

We also need to make sure that any equipment that we recomend for the basic setups can be can be used in a more advanced system. Obviously there will be some exceptions to that due to cost.

Aaron

[petplanet]

once finished, have everyone agree on a final and have it as a sticky!

Wrong forum for that to happen!

1. Don't use canister filters for mechanical or biological filtration

2. Don't use wet/dry filters

3. Don't use undergravel filters

Can't agree with that for a start.

You can do it with all those things or none of them. I would take plenty of advice from anyone who gives it, read a few books written by experts and then come to a decision that you are happy with.

First decision is fish only, lots of fish and corals, mostly corals and not a lot of fish.

I would go with a sump for added water volume and the ability to hide equipment. Fish only, fluros. If I had corals then a metal halide. You can pick up a twin 150w metal halide with 4 blue tubes for $900ish. You can always start the tank with fish, upgrade lighting later and add additional equipment.

All the equipment you would need to start is tank, sump, return pump and stand (and at this rate a bigger apartment).

[lduncan]

Can't agree with that for a start.

Why not? I'd say almost all people here would agree with that. Sure you can use them, but will it be beneficial to you're tank... I don't think so.

Despite the debates that go on here, most people agree on the fundamentals.

Layton

[Brianemone]

i have run a tank with a cannister filter as the primary form of filtration.

i would have to agree with lduncan in that to keep any sort of marine tank long term and successfully the above mentioned filtration methods are not effective or good value for money.

while some people use cannisters to run certain things like nitrate/phospahte removers and carbon, they are not effective as primary filtration

not only did my corals do better when i added an appropriate skimmer but my fish where visibly healthier

[ben19185074]

I run a ehiem wet/dry cannister and a rea sea prizm skimmer...(I have 0 or really close to NO3 from Macro and water change)

The reason for not using cannister for bio filtration is because it create NO3 which is bad for your corals. (FOT then don't worry too much)

The reason why i use it is because i have too many fish and too small tank so there is not enough place for too many LR.

[lduncan]

The reason for not using cannister for bio filtration is because it create NO3 which is bad for your corals. (FOT then don't worry too much)

The reason why i use it is because i have too many fish and too small tank so there is not enough place for too many LR.

The reason is not so much that they create nitrate efficiently, but more that they have no means to continue the processing to reduce nitrate to nitrogen gas.

I'd say that a DSB would be more appropriate for that situation.

But as for giving advice to someone starting out, I think it is appropriate to strongly advise against the above filters.

Layton

[petplanet]

I think that proves my point.

Everyone has their preferences. My current tank runs on cannisters, powerheads and a skimmer just fine. Sure, maybe they are not the best buy but I already had them.

I have read several books which discribe experts using nothing but rock and airlifts and that worked well for them.

Just a note, when I replace the tank in the next year it will be a sump and a better skimmer to maximise water volume and increase fish load.

[lduncan]

Times have definitely changed.

Layton

[Control]

Petplanet

Wrong forum for that to happen!

Why , where are we supposed to be.

If we do it this way it will take for ever.

How about setting it up based on a differant cost basses

$ 500

$1000

And so on.

Work out the must haves within the budget for each type of tank, fish only, basic reef, advanced reef. State the obvious pro's and con's without trying to confuse people with things that they are better off learning over time with experiance.

The important thing is to get them started in the best way bassed on what they can afford.

Aaron.

[lduncan]

How about setting it up based on a differant cost basses

$ 500

$1000

And so on.

Work out the must haves within the budget for each type of tank, fish only, basic reef, advanced reef. State the obvious pro's and con's without trying to confuse people with things that they are better off learning over time with experiance.

$500 - lucky to get an appropriate sized tank for that.

$1000 - Maybe a skimmer and half a tank.

You have to be realistic. Tell someone they can do a tank for $1000 and they'll be put off the hobby for life when they have poor results from it.

The important thing is to get them started in the best way bassed on what they can afford.

I think this attitude is totally wrong. The best way to get people started is the way which will be most successful. Telling someone they can do a tank for $1000 is setting them up for disaster.

$5000 would be my starting point for a 4 footer full reef, which should be the minimum size for someone starting out.

Layton

[petplanet]

I think this attitude is totally wrong. The best way to get people started is the way which will be most successful. Telling someone they can do a tank for $1000 is setting them up for disaster.

$5000 would be my starting point for a 4 footer full reef, which should be the minimum size for someone starting out.

Yes, but most people don't start big. I always say to customers start with a 3ft tank minimum. You could do it for $500 and it would work. No/dirt cheap skimmer, powerheads and rocks and a fluro or two. Gets you in the game. That could be step one.

Step 2, use 3ft as sump for bigger tank, lights for refuge. Not much wasted.

[lduncan]

Personally I think that is a terrible attitude.

I started off with a 3 foot tank. And there is no way I would ever recommend it to ANYONE just starting out in the hobby. Nor would I recommend not using a skimmer.

As for not much wasted, what about all the livestock which will be killed, because the tank was too small, had insufficient lighting, and no skimmer?

$500, you really have to be joking, test kits alone may be a couple of hundred.

Minimum realistic budget for a full reef would be about $5,000

For a fish only maybe $4,000

That is not starting big. 4 foot really is a minimum tank size for a beginner to have the highest chance of success.

Layton

[Ira]

For a fish only maybe $4,000

What would you consider NECESSARY for a FOWLR that would add up to that much? By my math, for an average 4ft being on the high side for prices..

4ft tank Dunno, say $1000 inc stand.

Base rock: $300

Skimmer: $500

A couple flouro fittings $100

RO $200?(Haven't looked at prices)

Heater: $30

2-3 Power heads: $100

Test kits $100

Refractometer $120

Then add whatever livestock on top of that. So say about $2500 and that's with a skimmer that would be better than you need for just fish. You can get the tank for heaps cheaper than $1000 and odds are you'd already have one. So that's heaps less, same can be said for the heater.

Now, if you want to make wavemakers, temp controllers, calcium reactors, peristaltic pumps as others here would suggest, just for your fish...Then yeah, it can cost that much...

Let's see, the equipment I have that would be necessary for just a FOWLR would be about $1300, most of that being a POS Deltec skimmer and rock.

[misnoma]

Ira... what is RO?

other than that... you've pretty much given a damm good starting point (other than cost for 4ft tank and stand, but hey )

[Ira]

Reverse Osmosis for purifying topoff water. 1 liter of of nice clean water for 5-10 liters of slightly dirtier water.

[lduncan]

salt, plumbing, sump, pumps, substrate, livestock