Dark Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 Lilaeopsis somethingarotheria, hard to guess from pictures online what a particular plant is, but it is basically a grass. It grows, it spreads, but it does not look happy. If it were a houseplant i would assume that it was not getting enough water! It looks withered, the 'leaves' curl over and hug the gravel and eventually it gets covered in algae spots. It has spread around the tank but the distance between shoots is quite large (about an inch). Temp is around 24degC, pH is 6.5 and KH is around 2. C02 is in there somewhere but I'm no good at measuring the levels yet (unless they really are at 30-40ppm, which I seriously doubt). Light levels are existant, created by 8 6500K t8s (no reflector) and depth is about 2 feet. I assume that the light levels are too high as grass growing under other plants behaves more like i would want it to, also noticing sword plants have abnormally small leaves... Any experience or suggestions on how to get it to grow as a nice grassy mat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantman Posted March 6, 2005 Report Share Posted March 6, 2005 I assume that the light levels are too high as grass growing under other plants behaves more like i would want it to, also noticing sword plants have abnormally small leaves... it sound like nutrient deficiency. i am not to good at this, may brother Alan or Warren can help. how old is your tank? if it is a new setup, weekly change of water is very ideal until the plant stabalise in your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted March 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 tank is about a year and a half old and pretty damn stable water and substrate fertilizer replenished as often as recommended if not more often and C02 injection. The plants are getting their micro and macronutrients. water changes done when necessary. substrate consists of aquatic potting mix covered and propagating sand. substrate is non-heated, something i am trying to non-invasively solve. could be a number of small things or one large thing but i'm pushing towards the lighting problem... the hygrophila does not grow more than an inch off the ground, nice and thick. most of the plants that are nearing the surface are getting red-tips, that side-effect of overlighting. it is quite a drastic lighting setup - sword plants have huge leaves in the darker areas and tiny leaves on the same plant in the light. the same grass in question grows 'nicely' when it makes it way under another plant (like the hygro). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantman Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 it is quite a drastic lighting setup - sword plants have huge leaves in the darker areas and tiny leaves on the same plant in the light. the same grass in question grows 'nicely' when it makes it way under another plant (like the hygro). it is normal for plant to get red when nearing the surface. lighting are normally messure by its wattage. if you tube is produce 36 watt (times) the number of tube will give you a good indication of suficient light. generally 3watt per gallon will be very excellent although some people has when up as high as 4WPG. that is of course assume your tube is not more than 6 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted March 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 i replace the tubes every 6 months on rotation. The problem with the WPG application is that is is a guideline and does not account for the depth of the tank. Although the rating is low i think i may have gone overboard with 8x36W tubes (total 288W in a 167 gallon tank is only 1.7WPG) i guess the only other thing i can do if reducing the lighting does nothing is to look at getting a lighting system that produces around 770W of lighting. MH here i come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 I'm only using about 500W on 300gals and have excellent growth at the substrate on all plants. It may not be the lighting but don't write it off. If everything has been fine since it was setup and things are going wrong now it probably isn't the lighting though. I'd check the phosphate level in the substrate. If there is too much (over about 3ppm) you can get root-burn. I've never had it myself but have read about it a long time ago. Another thing to look for is gas bubbles. If you push a small stick (about 3-4mm diameter) right to the bottom of the gravel and there are gas bubbles when you remove it there is a problem. It's a worse problem if the gas smells like rotten eggs. It means your substrate isn't breathing enough and is going stale. About 18 months is about the right time for this to happen if the gravel isn’t breathing properly. Under gravel heating helps with this problem as it creates a very slow circulation, just enough to stop it going stale but no so much that the fertiliser washes out into the water. This is due to the aquatic potting mix containing a lot of organic matter. Check your substrate fertiliser, it may have too much P in it. I've always found there is too much P in most fertilisers available. Most of the P in your substrate will come from uneaten food or waste. If any extra P is required, you won't need much. Too much P inhibits plant growth. It may not be P but organics breaking down in the substrate. Even the best planted tanks get algae on dying leaves. That's why you remove them at the first sign... If you have a deficiency problem, be it light or anything else or too much phosphate the leaves will struggle and algae will form on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted March 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Well i went and dug up the entire front of the tank (aquascaping rather than by misinterpretation of your recommendation ) no bubbles or funny smells to report. i don't have any way to test for P but i checked for rootburn, nothing wrong with the roots at all... quite the contrary! i have removed half the lighting over the tank to see what happens... guess its just a waiting game for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Hmm, I'm stumped, - good luck... :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 I recently bought some lilaeopsis which didn't last 3 days. I don't know who the culprit was (other plants are fine) but SOMEBODY ate it I am sure! No signs of it dying at all, just less plant each day. It was a reasonable height too about 8cm. :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted March 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 i have crazy plant eating culprits in my tanks as well - the cats get interested in this new thing in the tank and before it has a chance to root properly they dig it up. it then floats to the surface where everyone can enjoy a tasty snack on the fresh roots. i don't know how i managed to get this stuff to take, pure luck i think. i separated the root stock into about 7 small bunches and planted it all over the place - some got ripped out, some died, but a couple managed to take and have been growing poorly ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 I only have bristlenoses and a leopard cory. It wasn't dug up, just got shorter very fast! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverJohn Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 HI Dark, 250ish l tank, depth from Water surface to substrate approx 450mm. Substrate is nothing special, sprinkle some washed laterite around plants whenever i think about it. DIY CO2. Lights 5x 36W Flouro's. Hygro grows well, Cabomba ditto, Indian fern going good too. I have a couple of swords growing pretty good. I have an unidentified hair grass from the plant shop, grows REALLY well (see my pics) but litterally right next to it I have some mini mondo (or mini sag??), from the LFS, that looks rubbish. Seems to spread slowly but never looks really good. Sounds similar to your problem?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted March 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 must be the season for it reading up around the place i hear reports that grasses like high light, lower light causes them to spread out wide and not grow very high. its becoming a catch 22, if i lower the light overall the bottom of the tank gets less, if i raise the light the top of the tank gets more and it is already getting too much. i think it is time to consider putting a couple of fluros in a plastic bag and dropping them halfway into the tank! (while i'm at it i think i'll stand in the tank and use a blow dryer while making some toast and setting my clock radio...) when setting this tank up i read that fluros are only good to about 2 feet, thereafter the light diffuses too much to be of any use to the plants - the cure of course was to use a more powerful lighting source such as metal halide or HPS, but the cost is prohibitive not to mention the hassle of making sure nothing melts when touching them and they don't overheat. then again, this comes down to how people rate, measure and categorize lights, which i know nothing about. I keep a (stupidly) detailed database of all the plants and fish i have; each plant has its hardness and pH ratings, but the light ratings are simply 'low' 'med' 'high'. my concept of 'very high' light (as recommended for grasses in general) is, as demonstrated, 8x36w T86 6500K 4' Fluros. I have anubias nana growing on a log that sticks out the top of my tank. It is about 3 cm below the lights with a pane of 6mm glass inbetween. Anubias is apparently a 'very low' light plant, and it is growing like wildfire (wildfire for anubias that is). It is constantly in flower, needs pruning all the time - we are talking a bush the size of half a rugby ball from a mostly dead rhizome about 6 months ago. So, my idea of high light is someone elses idea of low light but wait theres more! my swords and ambulia have red tips on their leaves - the redness is caused by a natural reaction to high light - the plant turns red to repel red light, and thereby stops or slows photosynthesis. Therefore the light at the top of the tank according to the plants is high, information that is much more useful. So I choose to ignore the warning labels and go with what seems to work - the lighting is so intense i'm getting red tipped plants, extreme growth, tiny internodes (good blue light strength), tiny leaves (smaller leaf surface required due to high light) and anubias is obviously a plant that will suck up as mugh light as you give it but can survive in low light conditions. Based on what i know about plants and their behaviour (my brain is starting to hurt) i'm starting to think that, whenever i get a new plant, i should do in-depth research on it (and anything else that looks like it, ie: green and leafy) quarentine it for a couple of months and attempt to propagate it, then perhaps think about moving it into a display tank. rant> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiverJohn Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Couple of things.... The sword going red. Is it Echinodorus osiris? If so i think its normal. Mine do that. Then go green later on? Do you know much about Metal Halides?? I am thinking about lights for my new tank and was thinking about 2x 75W MH and 4x58W (5 foot) Fluoros. I dont know much about them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Mh are good fresh water people dont use them much in NZ i have a 70 watter lying around if you want it, the advantage is the number of bulbs that need replacing is lower 150w bulb as opposed to 4 flouro bulbs they are supposed to work out more effective re electricity usage vs actual light output if i ever setup a big fresh water tank i think id go Mh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 not much point in mixing floro and halide though just make sence to get big halides 250w or 150w (cost of bulbs is roughly the same) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted March 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Couple of things.... The sword going red. Is it Echinodorus osiris? If so i think its normal. Mine do that. Then go green later on? Na, I have E. osiris and E. cordifolius var marble - it is the marble that is showing the red. the E. osiris is doing well. i have a 70 watter lying around if you want it... question would be, what do you want for it? i'd like to experiment with them to see how it went before investing in the system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 ill swap you it for a plant i got it for free so im not too worried, i could probably hook you up with another one as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Posted March 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 *trys to contain excitement* well... in that case i could give you two plants! Or as much plant matter as i can realisically get away with... anything in particular you are looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 anything you dont normaly see in the store would be cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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