AquaMarine 900 vs. RedSea Max 130D

[brett2003]

Hello all,

I'm presently running a sort-of converted freshwater aquarium (an old AquaOne AR620T) as a saltwater system, but it's just not working out - the filter and lighting are not at all adequate (despite what my LFS told me), and short of some serious hacksaw DIY, there's not really anywhere to put a skimmer or decent lights (plus it would seem a waste to buy decent equipment for an aquarium that had so many problems when I could just buy a new one )

The current stats are:

130L

15kg Live Rock

Lighting: 2 x PL 18W Mix Triphosphor/Blue Fluorescents

Stock: 1 x Clarkii clownfish, 1 x Coral beauty, 1 GSP coral (so far hasn't opened, had it for only five days so far, though), 1 Astraea snail (also five days in, looks like it's dying, to be honest - spent 2 hours acclimating it, but 'manually' rather than by the drip method, so that could be the problem)

NH4: 0ppm

NO2: 0ppm

NO3: 10ppm (water change within the last few days, had some trouble keeping this down, convinced the filter isn't helping as its prone to getting detritus trapped in it)

SG: 1.026

pH: 8.4

kH: 10

PO4: Approx 0.1ppm

Anyway. There are two plausible 'set' upgrade options that have caught my eye, the AquaMarine 900 (with the apparently somewhat controversial MariSys filter) and the RedSea Max 130D.

http://www.aquaone.co.uk/aquamarine_900.php

http://www.redseafish.com/index.aspx?id=4377

Now, if money were no object, I would absolutely go with the 130D, but the reality is that there's a _massive_ difference between the two in cost (at Hollywood Fish Farm, anyway) - they quoted me $2000 for the RSM130D and only $1400 for the AM900.

Being as I am a student, money is obviously a pretty big deal.

My question is thus this - I know the AM900 isn't as good as the RSM130D, but is it good enough? As in, if I keep the bioload sensible, and replace the filter media in the MariSys (which includes ceramics, glass wool and foam pads) with the coral rubble I have in my existing filter, would it be acceptable?

I've read a few forums threads on various boards about the AM900 and it seems to be a bit of a love/hate proposition(!)

[Faithbleed]

Hey Brett, welcome!

Few things:

- GSP - Not opening after 5 days is not ideal, could be on the out - keep monitoring it.

- Astraea snail - I have 3 and manually acclimated them over 2 hours. I just ensured the PH and temp was the same before I dumped them in. Also have lots of algae so they're well fed.

- Nitrate - That's pretty high, could explain the snails unhappiness. Good filtration and flow help keep nitrates under control. You could resort to chemical dosing (NOPOX) to reduce nitrates, but my experience is that it causes more issues than it fixes. Vodka dosing is a good alternative. Obviously try to fix the cause rather than just a bandaid. Consider removing the coral rubble from your filter (why are you using a filter and not a skimmer by the way?) as it could be contributing.

Can't really comment on either setup as my system is full DIY, but I've heard good things about RSM and they do look quite good when setup. Bare in mind that with all-in-one setups comes a lack of customization and upgradability.

[marinefish4life]

Do DIY mate

[Mirio]

DIY.. Get a new tank, you can get HOB Skimmers that are great quality and under $250 around. Eg Bubble Magus NAC5E I think it is from deepblueaquarium.. That's if you have to go sumpless. If you can sump it, do it. Youll probably end up paying less DIY and have a much more reliable setup IMO

[brett2003]

Thanks for the prompt replies everyone

I'll keep an eye on the coral, but the snail is seriously unwell - it won't even attempt to stick to surfaces, and isn't moving much.

The skimmer/filter issue is part of the problem - it's one of those 'kitset' things designed for freshwater, with an inbuilt wet/dry in the hood, so there's nowhere to put a skimmer without hacking at it (and honestly I don't trust myself to get it right) - plus I'd be tempted to just replace the whole thing (with one of the alternatives above) rather than buy an expensive skimmer for a terrible aquarium (that I've owned for 7 years, and so which I didn't have to shell out a lot of money for recently). I'd also read that vodka dosing doesn't work if you don't have a skimmer to clear the excess free-floating bacteria? I've never tried it, but that's the reason I've been avoiding it.

Re: the coral rubble, I was told it was better than using bioballs, foams and so forth because those are even worse for detritus buildups? I'm sorry if that's terribly naive of me to say, I'm totally ignorant with the saltwater tank thing - I did a lot of reading (and watched a lot of YouTube videos), but everyone has a different take on it, so I'm a tad confused(!)

Edit: The coral polyps are turning brown too, so it looks like that's also on the way out. I might have to make this a FOWLR tank until I can afford to upgrade/replace the setup - the fish, at least, seem happy and healthy (a little *too* healthy in the case of the Clown - she tries to bite the test tube when I do water tests )

[Faithbleed]

I'll keep an eye on the coral, but the snail is seriously unwell - it won't even attempt to stick to surfaces, and isn't moving much.

Take the snail out and smell it - if it smells rank chances are it's dead and will soon be dumping ammonia into your system. Bare in mind that snails are nocturnal and do bugger all moving during daylight hours, also they probably wont stick if you try to attach them. Just leave them on sand or rock and they'll find their happy place.

The skimmer/filter issue is part of the problem - it's one of those 'kitset' things designed for freshwater, with an inbuilt wet/dry in the hood, so there's nowhere to put a skimmer without hacking at it (and honestly I don't trust myself to get it right) - plus I'd be tempted to just replace the whole thing (with one of the alternatives above) rather than buy an expensive skimmer for a terrible aquarium (that I've owned for 7 years, and so which I didn't have to shell out a lot of money for recently).

Can really keep a happy marine setup without a skimmer, unless you like doing reasonable sized water changes often. Set a cap of how much you're prepared to spend and work backwards from there. Bare in mind there will be lots of unforeseen expenses and if you're gullible - even more. I advise looking into the DIY option, it will give you more flexability and you won't run into the same issue you're having at the moment with your inbuilt hood.

I'd also read that vodka dosing doesn't work if you don't have a skimmer to clear the excess free-floating bacteria? I've never tried it, but that's the reason I've been avoiding it.

Correct, think that bit through. You will need a skimmer to dose either.

Re: the coral rubble, I was told it was better than using bioballs, foams and so forth because those are even worse for detritus buildups? I'm sorry if that's terribly naive of me to say, I'm totally ignorant with the saltwater tank thing - I did a lot of reading (and watched a lot of YouTube videos), but everyone has a different take on it, so I'm a tad confused(!)

Lots of conflicting information here. I've been told that coral rubble is good, then been told its bad, then been told it's useless - it's a one of those trial and error things, if you notice it helps remove negative effects, keep it, if you find it's adding to the issues (as my coral rubble was) - the remove it.

Edit: The coral polyps are turning brown too, so it looks like that's also on the way out. I might have to make this a FOWLR tank until I can afford to upgrade/replace the setup - the fish, at least, seem happy and healthy (a little *too* healthy in the case of the Clown - she tries to bite the test tube when I do water tests )

Sorry to hear about the coral, you can always see if someone is willing to nurse it back to health or if your LFS is willing to take it back, rather than it simply dying and going to waste. My clowns nip at my finger as soon as I put them in regardless of whether I have food or not - great little characters they are.

[brett2003]

Hmmm. I'll check on the snail properly today, although from the looks of him this morning, I'd say he's dead He was the last one the store had (went to AquaWorld for a change instead of Hollywood), but HW tell me they've got a new shipment coming in soon, so I might try again once I have the nitrates better under control.

Can really keep a happy marine setup without a skimmer, unless you like doing reasonable sized water changes often. Set a cap of how much you're prepared to spend and work backwards from there. Bare in mind there will be lots of unforeseen expenses and if you're gullible - even more. I advise looking into the DIY option, it will give you more flexability and you won't run into the same issue you're having at the moment with your inbuilt hood.

I'm reading that as '*can't* keep...'? Yea, I'm rapidly coming to that conclusion :-( I do actually do a lot of water changes - at least 1 x 24L change (in a 130L tank) per week, and the nitrates are _still_ that high. The extra hidden costs (and me being new to saltwater and therefore totally gullible) are part of what motivated me to think a set like the 130D or 900 would be good for me - I know it's frowned upon by the serious reef enthusiasts, but it would mean that I wouldn't have to then go out and think separately about lights, filters, skimmers and so forth because it would all be there. Plus I'm happy to stay away from the stony corals and stick to soft - the SPS/LPS are all out of my price range anyway(!)... In terms of price, the cheaper of those two sets was $1400, which is really pushing the limit of what I'd be prepared to save towards (student budget) -I'm not completely familiar with the prices, but it sounds like (just from a quick browse of HW's website) that I'd be looking at $500-$600 just for the skimmer and lights, not to even think about getting a frame/cabinet, the tank itself, a sump, whatever pumps are needed etc etc... The last custom I had built was my 152L freshwater, and that cost around $500 for the tank and the stand (and the stand was the cheapest, ugliest steel frame they did, too - the custom wood cabinets are frighteningly expensive).

Lots of conflicting information here. I've been told that coral rubble is good, then been told its bad, then been told it's useless - it's a one of those trial and error things, if you notice it helps remove negative effects, keep it, if you find it's adding to the issues (as my coral rubble was) - the remove it.

Hmm. Well, I've just reconfigured the filter chamber (removed all the grating, dividers and so forth and now have _just_ the coral in there), so it's too early to tell if it's still causing problems *but* in the event that it does continue to be an issue, is there any type of media you'd specifically recommend? I notice that HW (the Albany branch, anyway) just have most of their hooked up to skimmers and sumps with big chunks of live rock in them and not a whole lot of other filtering at all).

Sorry to hear about the coral, you can always see if someone is willing to nurse it back to health or if your LFS is willing to take it back, rather than it simply dying and going to waste. My clowns nip at my finger as soon as I put them in regardless of whether I have food or not - great little characters they are.

I'm still really hoping it won't die if I can just get those nitrates under control - going to have another check of the chemistry tomorrow and see what's going on there.

[livingart]

do 20% water change daily

ensure new water doesn't already contain nitrates etc

do you have substrate in tank?

[brett2003]

do 20% water change daily

I've ramped it up to twice a week until the problem is under control, but I can't actually afford the marine salt to do it daily - I estimate the cost to be around $6 per 24L water change, and I'm living on rather less than minimum wage at the moment

ensure new water doesn't already contain nitrates etc

I have checked, and the tap water has no nitrates or phosphates.

do you have substrate in tank?

I *do*, and to be honest I'm of two minds about it - there's a layer of about 1-2cm (depending on where in the tank you are) worth of aragonite sand.

[raeh1]

Both will be fine. I like REd sea maxs which sometimes go for around $1000 second hand. There are also some easy mods that can be done to them.

[brett2003]

Both will be fine. I like REd sea maxs which sometimes go for around $1000 second hand. There are also some easy mods that can be done to them.

Yea, the more I read about the AM900, the less I like the idea - it sounds like even the supposedly new-and-improved MariSys filter that it comes with has a pretty bad reputation.

Well, the snail is dead (smells rank), and the coral is also browning pretty badly. I moved it to a separate container with freshly mixed water as a last ditch attempt to stave off NO3 poisoning, but it also smelled pretty bad when it was briefly out of water... Plus of course, the pH isn't quite the same, so that might very well kill it too .

I think I wasn't quite ready to make the transition from FOWLR to reef

I'd prefer to go new, so I think I might just spend the next six months saving up for a 130D, move the existing rock and sand over and see how I go from there.

It also has the size advantage, in the sense that we move quite often, so 110L (the RSM 130D) would be easier to take with us than 176L (AM900).

[raeh1]

sent you a link.

[Faithbleed]

Are you using just tap, RODI or distilled water?

Regular tap water is not conducive to coral keeping.

Keeping it as a fowler tank and maturing your rock isn't a bad way to start out until you have the gear to setup a full reef, don't get disheartened.

I still suggest creating a budget and working out which way is going to be better for you.

[brett2003]

Are you using just tap, RODI or distilled water? Regular tap water is not conducive to coral keeping.

Tapwater - I had a look at the RO/DI units at Hollywood and just about died of shock when I saw how much they cost. Is there anything in particular I should be worried about in tapwater that won't show up on a home test kit? I work at a lab, so it wouldn't be the end of the world for me to get it tested for one or two things if needed.

Keeping it as a fowler tank and maturing your rock isn't a bad way to start out until you have the gear to setup a full reef, don't get disheartened.

It's not working out quite as I intended, but I'm not giving up just yet - at least my fish seem happy and healthy, so that's a plus

I still suggest creating a budget and working out which way is going to be better for you.

Yep, if HW ever get back to me, I'll make some inquiries about custom setups as well (I know they do stands, tanks, sumps to order etc)... What would be the minimum for filtration? Some people seem to say skimmer is sufficient (with LR), but other people seem to say skimmer + sump with whatever media you happen to be using.

[Faithbleed]

- Unless you have a Redsea or Hanna Test kits, you probably won't detect phosphate even when you have phosphate issues. Tap water is high in phosphate, nitrates and silicates all of which aren't good for the marine setting - fish are far more tolerant than corals. Try testing just tap water to see what you're putting in.

- I'm running a 300L display and 100L sump (filled to 50L) with nothing more than a skimmer, heaters, carbon and a return pump. As my tank matures and issues arise, my plan is to use the space in the sump to put in a DSB, refugium, bio media or a reactor, what I add will depend on what issues arise and what I want to tackle/solve.

- An HOB skimmer will probably suffice, unless you want to get into the more serious corals and/or you want to hide some of your gear.

- Get multiple quotes - talk to Greg about building you a tank and consider building a stand yourself (I made mine for 1/3 the price of a store bought one and it doesn't look too bad if I do say so myself).

[brett2003]

Unless you have a Redsea or Hanna Test kits, you probably won't detect phosphate even when you have phosphate issues. Tap water is high in phosphate, nitrates and silicates all of which aren't good for the marine setting - fish are far more tolerant than corals. Try testing just tap water to see what you're putting in.

Okies, well, I've tested it with the home test kits and it reads zero on both nitrate and phosphate (don't have a silica test of any type), but the PO4 kit isn't really sensitive below about 0.12ppm, and the NO3 isn't sensitive below about 5ppm, so I take your point.

[Edit] - I see there's this one: http://www.hollywoodfishfarm.co.nz/deta ... ter/m/949/ available from HW - I see it's not a proper RO/DI unit, but would it suffice for a small tank? I ask because the only actual RO/DI on there with a price is $600, and looks like it might be a bit large for our small apartment (Can't really tell from the low qual photo, but it would be a concern)

I'm running a 300L display and 100L sump (filled to 50L) with nothing more than a skimmer, heaters, carbon and a return pump. As my tank matures and issues arise, my plan is to use the space in the sump to put in a DSB, refugium, bio media or a reactor, what I add will depend on what issues arise and what I want to tackle/solve.

This is actually a point I've been curious about - where do skimmers typically fit? As in, do they sit in the sump or are they next to it? It seems to vary depending on which brand you read about.

Get multiple quotes - talk to Greg about building you a tank and consider building a stand yourself (I made mine for 1/3 the price of a store bought one and it doesn't look too bad if I do say so myself).

Yours does look pretty good! I'm not remotely handy, however - I have trouble assembling kitsets with clear instructions, which is one of the reasons why I was thinking of buying a 'set' in the first place. Regardless, though, if I have understood you (and everyone else) correctly, if I were to investigate custom I'd need:

Tank (with overflow), sump, cabinet, heater, skimmer, pump for skimmer, return pump for sump

[Faithbleed]

- You can get a full RODI unit imported from the US for around NZ$250. It's the one I use and it's still going strong after months. Unsure about that HFF one, don't know enough about them to comment.

- Depends on the model. Skimmers come in 3 types, in-sump (literally sits in the sump, partially immersed in water.), external (still designed for sump use, but sits out of the water) and HOB (self explanatory - Hang On Back).

- I hadn't built anything since woodworking in school, but I managed with the following tutorials and build posts on tank stands

- Stank, tank, sump, lighting, heater, return, powerheads, skimmer and plumbing (it can get quite pricey).

[brett2003]

Hmm. I'll give it some thought/research.

With the RODI units, do they require any modification to pipes in the house and so on? There's no way our agents would let me do that - they only just tolerate the presence of fish because they like us for some reason.

My other question would be re: running costs - what sort of consumables are involved in running an RODI device, and how often do they need to be replaced?

[brett2003]

Actually scratch that - I've done some more reading, and it sounds like DI units actually end up being *more* expensive if you don't have an RO system attached because the media depletes faster :-/

I don't suppose you'd know of a retailer who ships to NZ and sells RO/DI units (that don't require me hacking at and/or modifying my apartment in any way), and that are cheaper than HW's $600?

It could even be quite small with a low output since I want a tank in the 100 - 150L range (large side of nano, I guess).

Preferably something for which I could still buy consumables locally

[Godly3vil]

Ive seen a few on TM lately for around $150-250.

[brett2003]

Sweet, I'll keep an eye out there too (when the time comes(!)

[Faithbleed]

RO/DI units don't usually require any modification to pipes.

Mine simply attaches to the laundry tap and I run it till I have the amount of water I require then detach and pack away.

But yeah, check TM.

[brett2003]

Neat

Thanks for the advice! I'm looking to see if some/all of what I want can be shipped from marinedepot.com, too - much better pricing than locally, but then of course there's shipping.