help on selection of tropicals for a beginner

[koiboy]

I was on here a couple of weeks ago askin for help on filters etc and the selection of goldfish for my new tank. I have changed my mind on the goldies and decided to try tropicals. Up until now i have only had experience with keeping common goldfish and have made many mistakes and learnt from them. I have kept the goldies for three years and so gather that i have had enough practice to begin on tropicals.

The only thinng is, having no experience with tropicals, I am totally stuck and do not know where to go from here.

My tanks is 36" x 12" x 15" and has a fluval 204 canister and an undergravel. I have no plants nor decor in the tank (yet), just the gravel.

Can anyone help me choose the right fish and suggest any plants and decor to go with them.

I will much appreciate your help and advice and will thank you in advance.

Thanks

Matt

[Bruce]

Hi Matt

Welcome to the world of Tropicals

You really need to give us some idea of the fish you like to start with then we can offer some helpful advice as to what will go well with them

If you like african then you will have no need for plants and water conditions will not be suitable for much else, if you like to keep plants and do a setup around that then you will not be able to keep certain fish such as Silver Dollars because within a short time span you will have no plant left.... So help us out a little bit here, go and have a look around the local pet shops, decide what fish you like the most and we can all help you out on what will go well with them

Cheers

/Bruce

[Caryl]

So many fish - so few tanks! :lol:

I agree with Bruce. Visit your local pet shop and give us an idea of which fish appeal to you.

[Rob]

I have to agree with Caryl and Bruce that it may be an idea to go to a fish shop and see what you like the look of and then do some research from there (BEFORE you buy the fish).

Because I'm a fan of catfish and most of them perform a usefull task in the tank (clean up uneaten food) I'd recommend a catfish of some sort - particular type depends on what else is going to be in the tank.

Please note that I'm not saying catfish should be used solely as scavengers, they need a sinking food to supplement what they get from scavenging.

[CID in OZ]

Hi Matt

A heater is a good place to start with tropicals 200-300 watt

Make a list of the fish you like and then figure out what likes

the samewater parameters (conditions) its easier if you

try and fit them into what your local water supply is in ph

The common Britlenose is a valued addition to any tank

as they help keep the glass algae free

Other than that let us know what makes it to the wanted list

Chris D 8)

[koiboy]

Thanks for all of your advice. I have a few more questions to ask though.

I have been reading some books and looking through books which have info on different species.

- If there is a symbol next to the fish which in in the key means 'can be aggressive', does this generally just mean the males are agressive at spawning or prior to spawning. And does this mean that if i was to just have females from this species, then i would be avoiding any aggresion?

-If there is a symbol next to the fish which means it likes either acidic neutral or alkaline neutral, will this fish thrive (or live) in normal tapwater?

-And the same for if there is a symbol which means it likes slightly soft or slightly hard water?

You see, i do not want to make any mistakes, nor put any fishes wellbeing at risk - I care greatly for my fish and would hate to think that I was the cause of pain or suffering, through not researching properly.

Your advice so far has been of great value and is much appreciated,

Thank you,

Matt

[Caryl]

"Can be aggressive" may refer to either general aggressiveness (especially once they reach sexual maturity) or aggressiveness when spawning.

Many fish can cope with 'standard' water conditions outside their preferred pH as most fish these days are spawned in captivity. Years ago, when the hobby was new, all fish were wild caught and did not cope in other water parameters but these days many will tolerate a reasonable difference.

If you want to breed them it sometimes requires making sure the pH etc are more to their liking.

What is the pH of your tap water? If it is up around 8.0 for instance, you might consider an African set-up but if your tap water is soft and acidic perhaps tetras or discus would be the way to go. It is easier to keep fish according to your tap conditions to start with than to try and fiddle around trying to raise or lower the pH.

[koiboy]

Here are the sorts of fish that i had in mind (this is not a list of what i'm getting, just some ideas)

- Redtailed black shark or Siamese algae eater

- A pair of dwarf gouramis

- A pair of thick lipped gouramis

- Group of Cardinal tetras or neons

- Glowlight tetras

- Group of Zebra Danios

- Some sort of Barb - type unknown

- Tiger Barbs

- White cloud mountain fish

- Guppies (i have a soft spot for them)

- Silver Mollies

- 1 or 2 leopard Corydoras

- Some sort of swordtail

These are just a selection of fish which i liked the look of and know the price for.

Is it best to keep small or larger fish, I ask this because I would like a small shoal of tetras to liven the tank up a bit, but think that if i wanted to add an Angelfish at a later Date (which I probably will), then he will eat the smaller fish.

What do you think of my ideas? Nothing final of course, but I would like some opinions and advice before I go ahead and buy them (a selection of the ones from the list, not all of them).

By the way I have two nice pieces of driftwood which a relative gave me (i cleaned them with a pressure washer and have yet to boil them). I also have some rocks and will begin to aquascape my tank soon. Is it best to buy the plants at the same time as the fish or before or after?

Thanks for your help,

Matt

[ajbroome]

Koiboy said...

The following are just my comments, don't base your final decision

on what I'm saying but it may be worth considering...

> - Redtailed black shark or Siamese algae eater

I'd go with the shark, they can be agressive but are worth the

effort of providing hiding places. If I was getting SAEs I'd

get several, they do make good fish for eating algae (duh)

> - A pair of dwarf gouramis

One will die about two days after you buy it. They always do :-)

- A pair of thick lipped gouramis

Nice peaceful fish, not as colourful as the dwarfs.

- Group of Cardinal tetras or neons

Cardinals are generally 2 or 3 times the price of neons but are

bigger (less risk of being eaten) and more colourful. For a given

amount of money you can get more neons though...

- Glowlight tetras

Nice little fish, may be considered food by a large angel...

- Group of Zebra Danios

I avoid the long finned ones.

- Some sort of Barb - type unknown

- Tiger Barbs

Barbs can be a bit nippy, especially on fish with long trailing fins

such as angels, guppies and gouramis...

> - White cloud mountain fish

These generally do better in cooler water, in my experience.

> - Guppies (i have a soft spot for them)

They *will* cause you to buy more tanks... be warned :-)

> - Silver Mollies

Seem to do better with a little salt in the water, or at least

in harder water areas.

> - 1 or 2 leopard Corydoras

4 - 6 would be a better number, IMHO. They like to be in groups.

> - Some sort of swordtail

Good red ones make nice display fish.

> ... because I would like a small shoal of tetras to liven the

> tank up a bit, but think that if i wanted to add an Angelfish

> at a later Date (which I probably will), then he will eat the

> smaller fish.

It's likely that a big angel will at least attempt to eat small

tetras and guppy fry.

> Is it best to buy the plants at the same time as the fish or

> before or after?

I would say, 'before'. That'll give them some time to settle in

before the fish arrive.

I'd also start off with just a few of the hardier fish, say, the

guppies. Give them a week or two to make sure everything

is OK with the tank and the start adding more fish, a species

at a time, over weekly (or more) intervals. This gives the

filter time to cope...

Just my thoughts,

Andrew.

[Pegasus]

Good advice AJ, but please explain ??

> - A pair of dwarf gouramis

One will die about two days after you buy it. They always do

[ajbroome]

Pegasus said...

> ... please explain ??

Note the smiley after the statement.

It's just that every time anyone I've known has bought a pair

of dwarf gouramis (especially the 'fancy' ones, has anyone

seen the 'wild type' lately??) either the male or the female

has keeled over a day or two later. This can be annoying

when shops only sell them as pairs.

I'm sure it's *technically* possible to keep a pair alive... ;-)

Personally, I'd rather go with pearl gouramis anyway. A

nice one (especially a male in breeding colours) is very

impressive. Honey gouramis are cute too...

Andrew.

[Pegasus]

Hi AJ,

Can't say I have ever had that prob, but reading some of the boards it seems to be an ongoing thing, just about everywhere. Only yesterday I answered a post in the States that basically said the same thing, Eg.. "They, or one died after a few days" mind you, the person was keeping them in pH8.6, or should I say "trying to"

Just wondering if it is the present strain... interbreeding.. or some genetic fault, as I have kept and spawned dozens of pairs of these in the past.

Hi Koiboy,

They are a timid fish at first, and tend to take some time settling in, but once established they are a pleasure to keep, with not many others displaying the colours and characteristics that they do.

At breeding time the male can be a little terror, and will chase any intuders away, regardless of size he will have a go at them.

They use bits of plant for the nest, which can get quite large at times, but the young are quite fragile and require ideal conditions.

Good luck with your selection and setup

Regards,

Bill (Pegasus)

[Rob]

I second Andrews comments about your fish ideas.

In addition here are a couple of my thoughts:

Most of the fish on your list prefer slightly acid conditions but the livebearers (ie Guppies, mollies and the swordtails) prefer slightly alkaline conditions. I'm not saying it will be a problem - just something to be aware of and perhaps keep an eye on - if the tank is kept neutral (ie pH 7) then everyone should be pretty happy (mollies possibly being the exception - as Andrew noted, they seem to prefer a bit of salt in the water - I personally have never had much luck with them but that's just me).

Personally I'd choose the SAE over the shark (solely because if you didn't you'd have no algae eater in the tank - though the live bearers will nibble on algae, especially the mollies). I would consider a bristlenose/bushynose pleco (don't grow huge like common plecos and are good algae eaters).

I totally agree with getting the plants before the fish. Finding plants that survive in your tank can be a bit of trial and error. If you've got a single fluorescent over your 3' tank I'd steer clear of red leaved bunch plants (they usually demand more light), crypts would be good (they don't mind lower light levels and slowly multiply be sending out runners) other than these suggestions it's really whatever takes your fancy and will grow in your tank.

Again I echo Andrews advice of building up your stocking levels slowly, starting off with hardier fish. I would be inclined to start off with either the catfish or the livebearers for a couple of reasons, they're generally thought to be a bit tougher and both types will eat food on the bottom of the tank (if you started with neons/cardinals any food they didn't eat as it floated past them would get left ignored on the bottom of the tank).

Just a note on Guppies - guppies are what got me started in the hobby since then it has grown into an addiction with 14 tanks (and me dreaming of more) - you've been warned.

I'm sure there has been more than one person who has had a

"yah, the mummy guppy's given birth...what! - that gourami just ate one of the babies, and that other female guppy just ate another - that's cannabilism! I've got to get another tank so I can save the babies"

situation.

Also some people find guppies tough as nails and others find them difficult to keep alive. If you were NZ based I'd recommend getting locally bred guppies to start with rather than imported ones, as many people (including good shops) have lots of problems with the imported ones - but as you're UK based this may not be a problem.

[koiboy]

I think I have decided on one of the fish which I will definately go for and that Is The "Red Tailed Black Shark".

Just wondered if anybody knew, do these fish have sucker mouths to clean the glass, i read in an old book (from the 1950's) that they do.

I am only going to keep one of these fish.

Just thought I'd let you all know what has made it to the "Shopping List".

Thanks,

Matt :lol: :lol:

[Caryl]

RTB sharks do not have sucker mouths to clean algae.

[Goldie]

hi there, you mentioned you had a soft spot for guppies and if so then I suggest begin with them. Get more females than males and soon you will be aware of fry in the tanks for they breed like rabbits. They are fairly inexpensive too and so any mistakes will not be costly.

I agree that whatever you begin with ensure that you have a soft spot for them. Makes the learning much more fun.

[koiboy]

I have been thinking about the fish to go in the tank and so far have come up with this list.

*=almost definately going to get **=definately going to get

- =not sure but considering

**Red tailed Black Shark (x1- ?male?) 6inches

* Dwarf Gouramis (1x male and 2x female) combined 6inches

* Zebra Danios (x4) combined 8inches

- Silver Mollies (don't know how many) don't know the length

- Angel fish (Koi one, I think - are these the ones with white bodies and - orange head?)(x1) 5inches

Total=9 fish (not including mollies) total length=25inches (not including mollies)

Maximum length of fish for surface area=32inches (i think)

Is this a good list or not, have I got to much or what?

have I got the male to female ratios right, or the group numbers right?

Please let me know what you think,

Thanks

Matt

[dennis]

A catfish or two wood be a idea

as they eat the food the other fish don't

[Goldie]

good thinking dennis, however do not forget to feed the catfish - I use the spirulina discs. Being a new tank you will not have any algae build up that some fish need to survive. Another thing I learnt was that some hard wood is also beneficial to some fish and you will need to soak, scrub and sink this in your tank. trust this is helpful.

[Caryl]

I would forget the silver mollies. These are not a fish for a beginner as they develop white spot very easily. They also need a little salt in their tank and are not a true freshwater fish.

That is not too many fish either and you won't know what sex your RTB shark is.

I also agree that some bottom feeders wouldn't go amiss. Perhaps Corydoras or some Ancistrus (bristlenose catfish). It is the bristlenoses that need hardwood in their diet as Goldie mentioned.

[zeta]

I highly recommend pearl gouramis and kribensis

[koiboy]

I dont know whether anybobdy knows anything about plants but heres what i had in mind for planting up the tank.

echinodorus tunicatus

eleocharis acicularis (hairgrass)

limnophilia sessiloflora (ambulia)

cabomba piauhyensis (red cabomba)

sagittaria graminea (wheat plant)

cabomba cardiniana (green cabomba)

I dont know whether these plants will work (size is my main concern by the way), but its just ideas.

I will probably buy the plants tomorrow or sunday, so have really left it to late to ask you this, but what do you think?

Thanks A Lot

Matt

P.S I expect the fishstore i go to will give me some advice on plants as their all experts (i know this for a fact) and the company is not the sort of company who will sell you anything just to make a profit.

[Caryl]

This site has a lot of information on plants. Click on the 'fnzas is here' at the top of the page then click on Plant Survey on the left. You can search for the plants by name and get the information you need.

[koiboy]

I have been doing more thinking about my tank and have come up with a stock list that I think I like. I have still not planted the tank as I havent had time yet although may do it tomorrow, and the earliest that I will be stocking with fish is not next saturday, but the saturday after.

I have been reading and have read that If i wanted to I could keep Kribensis as community fish. If this is so, then here is my proposed stocking list.

2 x Kribensis (male and female) max size = 8" (combined)

3 x Dwarf Gouramis (1 male, 2 female) max size = 6" (combined)

4 x Zebra Danios max size = 8" (combined)

4 x PLaties (2 varieties, Male and female of each) max size 8" (combined)

I will also probably be getting a catfish/scavenger, I'm not sure about the Red tailed Black shark cos I have done more research and read some offputting things about their behaviour.

Would it be Okay to put Kribensis in with this mixture, in a 30" tank. I may convert my 36" tank to hold these tropicals at a later date (if i can temporarily home the goldfish) so they will have more space. I am going to put a slate structure in the tank for the Kribensis, and smaller fish will have the driftwood, and upturned flower pot to go if things get nasty with Kribensis. Would this work?

By the way, I have decided not to go for fancy plants, just your ordinary begginers ones.

PLease tell me if you think this stocking list will not work, or if you have any suggestions to improve it.

Thanks for your help,

Matt

[Caryl]

The great thing about those plants is, when they get too big you chop the tops off and replant them - free plants! Not the hairgrass though.

Many people keep kribs in a community tank. They only get aggressive when spawning. Put their cave in a corner or at an end because they will defend their territory and chase the other fish away from there. Having them at one end is easier on the other fish than having them taking over the centre of the tank.