chris b Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I don't mean to be nasty, sorry if iv offended you, i am honestly interested to see how they go. I haven't read all the comments above as i don't have time at the moment (will tonight) it is a very interesting topic and is always a good debate, iv seen the same debate a few times on loaches online ill see if i can find them and post some links tonight if it works out ok in your tank i would even plan on doing it myself in the future cichlids are a very cool fish :thup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henward Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 i personally feel that in most cases, i keep fish in their natural parameters as much as possible, there are occasions where fish can be adaptable. synodontis for one, they can live in pretty much most conditions. just my opinion but it is not unheard of to see clown loaches in african cichlid tanks from young, i seen many videos on line and the loaches are huge, active and very nice looking. good luck i say:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuri08 Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 ive seen your clowns henward they are very healthy and happy.i will post some pics of the clowns today.i cant help that the clowns were in a ph of 7.8 when i bought them butihave put them into there enviroment they are used to therefore have avoided stressing them trust me they are super happy and healthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henward Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 you can tell if clowns are happy,t hey come out to feed and feed alot. fat too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuri08 Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 well my clowns are always out swimming everywhere in a school and eat abit but dont want them too get to fat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris b Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 well i'm not going to say anymore b4 someone loses an eye haha. if you want to keep your clown with your cichlids thats fine by me please keep us informed on growths rates sickness etc if you can be bothered here are the "lol" post http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22968 its the only one i could find i'm sure there is a few more but i cant find them also found this http://forums.loaches .com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21053 thought it would help 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuri08 Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 dont see how that helped anything there was nothing there.i dont think you are capable of comprehending that these fish have been in a ph of 7.8 for over a year and half and are very big so maybe you should get some more education first and first hand experince rather than read some online american site.did you want me to get them and put them into a ph of 6.4 and shock them and take them out of conditions they are use to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 :thup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris b Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 :evil: What do you want me to say to make you feel better about doing the wrong thing i have tried being nice but you keep going on and on, is this really about what i said or are you just trying to justify yourself? I don't think you are capable of comprehending that these fish have evolved over thousands of years to live in a soft acidic water conditon and you saying they came in a bag with a ph of 7.8 dosn't really cut it. It's not just the ph thats the problem! "did you want me to get them and put them into a ph of 6.4 and shock them and take them out of conditions they are use to?" Well no you would have to acclimatise them to that...Have you heard of that? But yes that would have been a much better idea finally somethings getting through :nilly: Sure they will live in your tank just like you would with enough air and food to keep u alive and no way to escape wouldn't be ideal tho A?????? Loaches online is a ONLINE forum for the world... The link in the link was the point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I posted something, then thought better of it, but I agree with Chris and will try reiterate my basic points again. Please don't resort to personal attacks like claiming people are lacking in education simply because you disagree with their ideas... Point A; your fish are thriving now, but that does not mean they will thrive their entire lives. All animals become more susceptible to disease and illness as they get older, just look at how easily old people get sick and often struggle to recover. Fish are no different. I have experienced it myself with a group of older Geophagus that were suffering from HITH when kept in harder water, which has now 98% cleared up once moved to a tank with soft acidic water. Same diet, same water change regime, even the same water out of the tap. I have also watched clown loaches thrive and then gradually decline in health over a period of around ten years from being kept in a 4' tank. Your fish may initially thrive in unusual conditions, but I think they may suffer in the long run. Point B; There is more to it than pH. African cichlids come from hard and alkaline lake waters with little flow, high aeration and a temperature around 25C. Aside from the difference in pH, there will be a difference in hardness and TDS, and these differences are every bit as important (or even more-so) than the difference in pH. Clown Loaches come from fast flowing rivers and streams with very soft and acidic, water often high in tannins, and also highly aerated but around 29-30C. Keeping cichlids that warm can speed up their metabolism and even shorten their lifespan (again, I have experienced this first hand, not just guessing here) while keeping loaches at 25C will make them a lot more susceptible to disease, especially whitespot (and also make it harder to treat). I have no experience with how african cichlids would deal with a high-flow environment as preferred by the loaches so won't comment, but if the clowns don't have the strong current to swim against you'd better have a long tank (at least 6') for them to stretch their legs in. These are not opinions, just plain simple facts... Point C; Its no great secret that most fish will tolerate some difference in water conditions to those they naturally occur in, so if you insist on keeping fish from completely different conditions together, then why not compromise half way between the desired conditions for each species? I have seen tanks housing a real mixture of fish like african cichlids and south american catfish work successfully for many years by keeping the water fairly neutral. You could quite easily drop your pH down to about 7.0-7.2 (along with the other corresponding values) with very little, if any, detriment to your cichlids and give your loaches a much better shot and reaching old age in good health. To me it seems foolish to expect one species to "get used to" totally different water parameters while providing another with exactly what they need, and would love to hear the justification for it. I will leave it at that, if you choose to fly in the face of common sense and good science then so be it. I'll take my underlying issues and lack of comprehension back to the american forums now where I can criticise others who also have too much time on their hands... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuri08 Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 i dont need to justify that my fish are thriving and will always thrive mate to be honest your words just fall on def ears i dont listen to over self opinionated people mate my fish are happy and healthy.ill put this easy for you to read ok THESE FISH HAVE BEEN USE TO PH 7.8 FOR OVER 1 1/2 YEARS NOW TO GET THERE BODYS USE TO THE PH BELOW 6 OR EVEN AROUND 6 WOULD BE A SHOCK TO THERE SYSTEM AND THEREFORE WOULD CREATE ILLNESS SUSCEPTIBILTY TO DISEASES SO WHY TAKE THEM OUT OF THERE ENVIRONMENT THAT THEY ARE USED TO?.just because a site says to put them in soft low ph water that still does not mean they will thrive.its not a personal attack unless you make it one.i can really see now what people have you said about some of the members on here. last thing to say if my fish arent ok why are they so happy and thriving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 This place is here to have discussions and hopefully learn something. Please try to use it for that purpose and stay away from the personal stuff. I think you have all had your say and from now on it will just get more personal and go round in circles so I have locked it. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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