Phosphates have reared there ugly head

[wasp]

Could be wrong, but my understanding on the zeovit issue is that both phosphate & nitrate can be limiting to bacteria, so if using zeovit it is recommended to avoid phosphate absorbers as the combined effect can reduce phosphate below that required to get a balanced amount in tandem with nitrate to fuel the bacteria that are dosed to remove nutrients of all sorts.

[lduncan]

Aquamedic stuff I have seen is a zeolite

Oh no not zeolites again. It won't get rid of phosphate, best it can do is help change it. It will help with algae though... but not by reducing phosphate.

Layton

[lduncan]

Could be wrong, but my understanding on the zeovit issue is that both phosphate & nitrate can be limiting to bacteria, so if using zeovit it is recommended to avoid phosphate absorbers as the combined effect can reduce phosphate below that required to get a balanced amount in tandem with nitrate to fuel the bacteria that are dosed to remove nutrients of all sorts.

Dosing bacteria (if that is what it is) is not going to help. You've got all the bacteria you need right in your tank already. Bacteria are ALWAYS limited by nutrients, adding a few drops can't change this.

In my opinion that's not the reason why it's avoided, along with ozone and UV.

[wasp]

My understanding is there was big arguments about zeovit some time ago before i joined this board, so don't want to start all that again, however should just point out those last 2 posts of yours are incorrect Layton.

Firstly, you said zeovit does not get rid of phosphate, it just "changes" it.

This misinformation origionated from some research that was done that found the tested zeolites will not remove enough phosphate from seawater to be significant. Trouble is this research was flawed because with all due respect to them they were barking up the wrong tree. In the zeovit system it is not the zeolite that removes the phosphate, it is the bacteria that is already present and is dosed, has it's action enhanced by the zeolite, and is then skimmed. On a weight for weight basis, bacteria is a more efficient consumer of Po4 than macroalgae. In a zeovit system, much of that crud in the skimmer will be bacteria, along with whatever phosphate they have consumed. This is how the zeovit system removes phosphate, it is not the zeolite itself. That is also why zeovit will not work in a skimmerless system. If it was the zeolite that removed or changed the Po4, then it would presumably work without a skimmer.

I don't disrespect anybody who holds the opinion that zeovit does not reduce Po4, they have just read inadequate research, can happen to anyone.

Secondly, regarding this statement,

Dosing bacteria (if that is what it is) is not going to help. You've got all the bacteria you need right in your tank already. Bacteria are ALWAYS limited by nutrients, adding a few drops can't change this.

In my opinion that's not the reason why it's avoided, along with ozone and UV.

Not the whole story I'm afraid. You are correct in that a healthy tank will be always "at capacity" with bacteria, however, be aware, any bacterial environment is a constant struggle between various types, and the particular heterotrophic bacteria that do what we want best in a reef tank get crowded out by other less useful bacteria. The ones we dose are two strains the zeovit manufacturer considers the most useful, and are dosed periodically to tilt the balance back towards the types we want. However, out of all the zeovit additives, my suspicion is that the bacteria would be the one that could most easily be forgone, as there would still be bacteria, we just dose them to keep it optimised the best.

That is also why ozone and UV are avoided, we are encouraging bacteria, not killing them.

Because of the fine reefkeepers with great tanks who do not use zeovit, including yourself Layton, just want to point out I mean no direspect by anything said, just feel that zeovit is a balanced and in some ways complex system, which has been the subject of much misunderstanding, and is still much misunderstood. Just trying to remedy that situation a little.

[lduncan]

I don't think my last two posts were incorrect at all. As for the history of this topic, there were a couple of threads where people felt that hard questions about how the system work were a personal attack. They are not. They are just questions.

This misinformation origionated from some research that was done that found the tested zeolites will not remove enough phosphate from seawater to be significant. Trouble is this research was flawed because with all due respect to them they were barking up the wrong tree. In the zeovit system it is not the zeolite that removes the phosphate, it is the bacteria that is already present and is dosed, has it's action enhanced by the zeolite, and is then skimmed.

I never said zeolite was responsible for removing phosphate. I have yet to see any research which suggests phosphate can participate in ion exchange in zeolites, it's a fairly large ion, and there are many forms of it. Anyway, even if there is a zeolite which can, it won't remove enough phosphate to be useful for other reasons. How does a zeolite enhance a bacteria's action?

Also lets not talk misinformation. The explanation of how zeovit works is pure misinformation.

Secondly, regarding this statement,

Not the whole story I'm afraid. You are correct in that a healthy tank will be always "at capacity" with bacteria, however, be aware, any bacterial environment is a constant struggle between various types, and the particular heterotrophic bacteria that do what we want best in a reef tank get crowded out by other less useful bacteria. The ones we dose are two strains the zeovit manufacturer considers the most useful, and are dosed periodically to tilt the balance back towards the types we want. However, out of all the zeovit additives, my suspicion is that the bacteria would be the one that could most easily be forgone, as there would still be bacteria, we just dose them to keep it optimised the best.

That is also why ozone and UV are avoided, we are encouraging bacteria, not killing them.

Because of the fine reefkeepers with great tanks who do not use zeovit, including yourself Layton, just want to point out I mean no direspect by anything said, just feel that zeovit is a balanced and in some ways complex system, which has been the subject of much misunderstanding, and is still much misunderstood. Just trying to remedy that situation a little.

What makes you think you can tilt the balance of this "constant struggle" between bacteria in favour of the ones your adding? It doesn't happen this way. The reason other bacteria will get crowed out is because there is no food for them. Believe me, if bacteria is the only active ingredient in zeobzac, it can be left out and the system will work. You already have all the bacteria needed to do all the processes you need right in your tank at this very moment.

As for ozone and UV, I think there is other more serious consequences than killing a small number of bacteria.

The more I think about the zeo system, I think the more simple it becomes.

[wasp]

I have yet to see any research which suggests phosphate can participate in ion exchange in zeolites

Correct, we both agree here. As I said, the research to which I referred states the zeolite does NOT remove significant phosphate. Hence people leaping to the conclusion that zeovit does not work.

I never said zeolite was responsible for removing phosphate.

OK, well we are both agreed on that also. I don't believe it "changes" it either.

Believe me, if bacteria is the only active ingredient in zeobzac, it can be left out and the system will work

Agreed again, I more or less said that in my previous post.

Don't quite see some of the other things you said the same way, as a guy who uses the product.

However, I'm not out to "convert" anyone, or take over the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Happy to discuss further in a different thread though.

[lduncan]

Let's go here then. http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewto ... 2931#52931

It is related to phosphate removers though.

[wasp]

Oops, wrong thread. Moved post.

[reef]

I have been using the salifert product for a while myself and havn't had any problems that I would attribute to it, however too many others do.

Well give us a few links of all the others that are having problems with the salifert phostphate remover??

If your bringing in ROWA thats great, any chance of selling it too me because i'd be very keen for some.

Why would you want to use it as it is iron based and will destroy your tank . it is iron based as you will be aware.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=419143

If I gave you a link to 'joes ghetto tank in untah' with 'Joe' saying 'he rekkons the Salifert product hosed his corals'

Where is the link??

[lduncan]

Or this one.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... did=370825

Personally I wouldn't be using this stuff.

Layton

[reef]

I dont have a problem with rowa or salifert phostphate remover. But of course i import both products.

You have to beware who gives you information as this post shows.

I have the largest collection of Acropora in the country and run over 2 Litres of PHostphate remover without any problems.

here is a good quote i found on reefcentral

Travis

SPS Obsessed

Registered: Nov 2002

Location: Sioux Falls, SD

Occupation:

Posts: 1810

I will also add that once someone starts a thread saying that ('X' product caused RTN/recession in my tank) it is only a natural reaction for others who are having recession problems and using product 'X' to jump in and blame their problems on product 'X'. Thus the whole thing can easily be blown out of proportion.

I'm not saying that the GFO's aren't causing problems in people's tanks. I'm just saying that we tend to want to blame our RTN/recession problems on something when the fact is we have no idea WHY it is happening. A fairly new product on the market has a good chance of becoming the scapegoat.

[lduncan]

Iron(II) Oxide/Hydroxide has been shown to inhibit algae growth. This is the concern I have about it.

Small amounts can "improve" colouration in acros.

I've been trying to find the study I read on it, no luck yet.

[Pies]

Looks like we could go back and forth like this forever.

Here is a link to, in my opnion, the nicest SPS tank I've ever seen. He uses fuidised ROWA:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/totm/index.htm

Alois - We all have to make up our minds on our own products and technology choices. I have chosed to abandon the Salifert Phosphate Killer product because of negative feedback i've had about it from people I trust. I would like to start using the ROWA product because I believe it will work better and be safer, I also like the idea of fluidising it. I could be wrong, I could be back to using the Salfert product next week, who knows whats going to happen.

As for the ROWA product distroying my tank, i am willing to take that chance, I've already survived Zeovit and Natural Sea Water. How about sorting me out with a bucket or 2 of ROWA so we can find out?

Pie

[Brianemone]

WOW, that tank is fantastic, i dont think ive ever seen corals that happy before.

one of the pics showing growth in one month is amazing

[reef]

MARK , On the subject of people advising you against salifert phosphate killer,

You have not given 1 link that says it has damaged someone’s tank. I can’t even find any info on the Net. It is almost the same product as Rowaphos so how can the advice you are getting saying it has damaged tanks.

It appears that you have deliberately and maliciously written untrue statements regarding the Salifert Phostphate killer without even providing any links or facts,

Salifert worldwide has been informed and will be looking at the options available.

[Pies]

You really just want to argue and stir don't you? I'll bite.

You have not given 1 link that says it has damaged someone’s tank. I can’t even find any info on the Net.

Don't forget the article from Randy Homes Farley saying many reefers have problems with GFO based phosphate binders. I am tired of repeating myself, but I will, people I know have told me the Salifert product has caused them problems, they switched products, problem gone.

It is almost the same product as Rowaphos so how can the advice you are getting saying it has damaged tanks.

Thats whats happened, if you don't belive it or don't want to belive it then don't. I belive it. People are entitled to their opnions, if you don't agree with them fine, its the difference between an opnion and fact.

It appears that you have deliberately and maliciously written untrue statements regarding the Salifert Phostphate killer without even providing any links or facts,

This is just funny, silly even. Again, repeating myself, I said 'ive been warned off it', thats all, that is extent of my malicous statement. Just to site the RHF post again, it states quite clearly that GFOs cause many problems to reefers, Salifert use GFO. As for posting links etc, would it really matter. In a previous post where you were being an idiot you said 80% of everything on RC is untrue anyway, so if I did post it would you belive it? Its pointless agrueing the case with you, you won't listen you only motive is to promote (and protect) the products you sell.

Salifert worldwide has been informed and will be looking at the options available.

Hahahahahaha. Do you mean as in they are going to try and take legal action against me? hahahahahahaha. Or do you mean they are looking at what options are available to imporve their product to ensure it can't cause any more problems? hahahaha

My one sentence has turned into several pages of posts highlighting problems with the Salifert Phosphate Killer because of your behavior Alois. If you hadn't kept pushing it no-one would have even paid it any attention. If Salifert want to be upset with anything said on this board, they should be upset with you for continuing to bring to the readers attention all the negitivity surrounding their GFO product. One sentance from me.

Maybee you should contact the Miracle Mud people and tell them about your statements saying its 'dirt from someones backyard', let the Miracle Mud people look at what options are available hahahahahahhaha

Mark

[Salifert]

From Reefcentral:

Originally posted by RGibson

Randy-can you tell me how your tests on the Phosphate-Killer are doing in your tank?

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

The only test that I ran was to put it into a cannister filter mixed up a bit with carbon. After about a month I opened it up and saw no precipitate or clumping. I was not trying to measure the effect on phosphate as I did not want to have to precisely control other things (like feeding rates). So it is more of a test to look for the possible side effects than a test of the product.

I am now running the same test with Rowaphos.

[Salifert]

After reading many threads about RTN and such by users of some phosphate adsorbers (NOT Salifert's) I decided to start a thread in the Dutch forum in Holland.

I asked approx 4 months ago:

1) How do you use the Salifert Phosphate Killer; sock, canister, fluidized?

2) If you take it out after use, has it become a clump or not?

3) Has there been coral bleaching after use of the Salifert's Phosphate Killer ?

4) Has there been loss of tissue when using it?

That thread can be found there: http://www.zeewaterforum.org/forums/sho ... ght=killer

[Salifert]

I have never seen threads or posts pies is referring to.

Is it Slander?

Probably not if he can give links to the so many complaints he is referring to.

Pies, please give the links etc here.

.

[Salifert]

One more from RC clearly stating things like "no harm to corals" etc.

Originally posted by joedelt

hey Randy,

maybe i missed it in the article, but how are you utelizing the phosphate killer? in a reactor or otherwise?

how long are you planning on keeping it in your tank?

thanks for the feedback

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

I decided to see for myself what, if anything, happens when using such iron oxide hydroxide materials. I'm not trying to track its efficacy (which would be a more complicated study of inputs and outputs), but rather to see if I see any of the problems that folks report using such materials, including precipitation of CaCO3 on the media or elsewhere in the system, and negative effects on corals.

I'm running it inside of a Magnum 350 cannister filter, along with carbon (more carbon than Killer). I've not opened it up to see what is happening inside, but I see nothing unusual after a couple of weeks when looking through the clear sides of the cannister. Nothing of note happened to any corals. Macroalgae growth may have been stunted for a while (it dumps directly into the refugium), but that is hard to gauge in my current setup since the nutrient availability is highly variable.

I'll open the cannister up after Thanksgiving and see what's been happening inside.

[lduncan]

Hi Habib?

Just a question on the Salifert product. Is it purely iron oxide/hydroxide, or are there other compound in it?

I'm doing some reading up on Geobacter, and interesting topic which may be linked to phosphate removers. A lot of things still confuse me about the stuff i've read, but still they look to be interesting creatures.

Any thoughts on them?

Layton

[Salifert]

Hi Habib?

Just a question on the Salifert product. Is it purely iron oxide/hydroxide, or are there other compound in it?

I'm doing some reading up on Geobacter, and interesting topic which may be linked to phosphate removers. A lot of things still confuse me about the stuff i've read, but still they look to be interesting creatures.

Any thoughts on them?

Layton

Geobacter metallireducens?

Ours is is purely ferric oxide hydroxide and is practically 100% crystalline.

[lduncan]

yes, and G. sulfurreducens

[RnB]

Eric:

Orthophosphate around natural reefs generally measures about 0.01 ppm and the instructions that come with Rowa Phos state, "the phosphate concentration should always be kept below 0.015ppm." You may consider 0.03 ppm low, but ideally levels should be half that.

It is true that it is difficult to reliably measure levels that low with hobbyist test kits. As I stated in the article, at 0.03 ppm I couldn't detect any color with the Salifert kit.

Richard Harker

[reef]

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