ZEOVIT

[AJL]

Interesting that when asked for an example of where the manufacturer is lying, you ignore the zeobac question now and fall back to a discussion of zeolites. In any case...

Ask boomer on RC (or preferably do some research), who is an expert in this field. He will tell you that there are two natural zeolite groups which have been shown to have marginally higher affinities for ammonia in saltwater than the calcium interference (Clinoptilolite and Heulandite). And that this weak affinity is reduced even further by bacterial interference. It is his view that zeolites (in there traditional use) are of little use in saltwater. This makes sense to me. Yet the manufacturer claims the zeolites are used for their ion exchange properties to remove ammonia.

Please provide a cite from Boomer that indicates he contradicts the claim. In one of his last posts on the subject on RC, Boomer said:

[quoting Randy Holmes-Farley] I'll concede that all comments that I've seen in these articles indicate that the authors think it possible that ammonia bound to the zeolite can in some fashion be used to enhance ammonia uptake by bacteria. I'm not convinced that it is true, but it is a reasonable hypothesis

That was the theory I also gave on the Zeovit thread to Alex and Gary. I also stated that GAC could do about the same thing as your abstract stated to include other porous media.

...

I don't know where I/we are. It seems to be up and down, I have changed my view twice in the last couple of days. It is getting more confusing

Please cite quotes that indicate Boomer now believes that no ion exchange process to remove ammonia is occurring. Please.

Yet the manufacturer claims the zeolites are used for their ion exchange properties to remove ammonia.

Here is what the KZ and Captive Ocean sites say:

Zeolites are a group of natural occurring minerals that exist worldwide. their chemica; composition can vary greatly and therefore exhibit different properties of adsorption, ion exchange of molecular retention. Today's modern industrial applications require very specific properties and therefore most of the zeolites used are either modified natural zeolites or completely synthetically manufactured. Our mix consists of three different zeolites. These zeolites were chosen because of their ability to reduce certain toxins in a balanced manner."

If you have a different quote from the manufacturer, I'd like to see it.

Finally, please read:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/ze ... ilters.htm

Dr. Jens Kallmeyer, who is also "an expert", although a bit more qualified, says among other things:

The Zeolites now used for seawater preferentially absorb ammonium, but this is just one half of the story. The other half is where the biology comes in. As already mentioned, Zeolites have a very porous structure. Under the microscope, they look almost like a sponge. The larger holes are MUCH bigger than the smaller ones, about a thousand times bigger. This porous structure creates a large surface area for bacteria to settle. As the ammonium is adsorbed by the crystal structure, the bacteria living on the Zeolite get their food delivered to their doorstep. To enhance the filtration capacity, a carbon source is added, in most cases not directly into the filter, but into the aquarium. In most cases, aquaria are carbon limited.

Therefore, by adding a carbon source, all bacteria in the tank receive some additional food. But as those bacteria that sit on the Zeolite get the ammonia much easier and in much greater quantity than others in the tank, they can make much better "profit" from the carbon addition.

All of this is consistent with the description of the method, and with how we're supposed to use it.

Swing and a miss. Try again.

Arthur

[dogcatcher]

lduncan, of course there is something else in the zeobac besides bacteria. How else would you preserve it? It only makes since that if you are adding a marine organism to your tank you would want that organism(s) to be held in a marine environment.

I'm still waiting for you to tell us why/how/what you know that makes everyone elses points/theories incorrect and yours correct.

instead of skirting everyone's questions/statements why don't you stand up and actually say something.

[lduncan]

lduncan, of course there is something else in the zeobac besides bacteria. How else would you preserve it? It only makes since that if you are adding a marine organism to your tank you would want that organism(s) to be held in a marine environment.

Yip, but my point is, is that your are not JUST adding bacteria when you add zeobac. Do you know what else is in it? How do you know that something else is not having an effect?

I'm still waiting for you to tell us why/how/what you know that makes everyone elses points/theories incorrect and yours correct.

Done

instead of skirting everyone's questions/statements why don't you stand up and actually say something.

can you read?

[lduncan]

[quoting Randy Holmes-Farley]

What's Randy got to do with what I said?

Yet the manufacturer claims the zeolites are used for their ion exchange properties to remove ammonia.

Here is what the KZ and Captive Ocean sites say:

Zeolites are a group of natural occurring minerals that exist worldwide. their chemica; composition can vary greatly and therefore exhibit different properties of adsorption, ion exchange of molecular retention. Today's modern industrial applications require very specific properties and therefore most of the zeolites used are either modified natural zeolites or completely synthetically manufactured. Our mix consists of three different zeolites. These zeolites were chosen because of their ability to reduce certain toxins in a balanced manner."

If you have a different quote from the manufacturer, I'd like to see it.

Sure: "It permanently absorbs ammonium (NH4+) and ammonia (NH3) the first two chemicals..."

Finally, please read:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3/ze ... ilters.htm

Dr. Jens Kallmeyer, who is also "an expert", although a bit more qualified, says among other things:

More qualified than who, and in what?

The Zeolites now used for seawater preferentially absorb ammonium, but this is just one half of the story. The other half is where the biology comes in. As already mentioned, Zeolites have a very porous structure. Under the microscope, they look almost like a sponge. The larger holes are MUCH bigger than the smaller ones, about a thousand times bigger. This porous structure creates a large surface area for bacteria to settle. As the ammonium is adsorbed by the crystal structure, the bacteria living on the Zeolite get their food delivered to their doorstep. To enhance the filtration capacity, a carbon source is added, in most cases not directly into the filter, but into the aquarium. In most cases, aquaria are carbon limited.

Therefore, by adding a carbon source, all bacteria in the tank receive some additional food. But as those bacteria that sit on the Zeolite get the ammonia much easier and in much greater quantity than others in the tank, they can make much better "profit" from the carbon addition.

All of this is consistent with the description of the method, and with how we're supposed to use it.

Swing and a miss. Try again.

Careful what you read Arthur. What does this show? No miss here.

[lduncan]

Quote:

Do you think is is due to rapidly decreasing phosphate and nirtate, which stresses the corals?

do you think this is why?

No, although I can't say for sure.

So you are saying you disagree with what the manufacturer says?

[AJL]

Yip, but my point is, is that your are not JUST adding bacteria when you add zeobac. Do you know what else is in it? How do you know that something else is not having an effect?

I don't, but since you're the one who made a point about it, you're the one that has to indicate why it makes a difference. Or dodge the question. I think we see which one you've chosen.

Quote:

I'm still waiting for you to tell us why/how/what you know that makes everyone elses points/theories incorrect and yours correct.

Done

He. Hehehe. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously, where?

Sure: "It permanently absorbs ammonium (NH4+) and ammonia (NH3) the first two chemicals..."

Where is that quote? And in any case, from Kallmeyer: Don’t forget that Zeolites are the most effective ammonium absorbers available.

"Dr. Jens Kallmeyer, who is also "an expert", although a bit more qualified, says among other things: "

More qualified than who, and in what?

More qualified than Boomer in determining the effects of zeolites in marine aquariums. Kallmeyer is a Doctor at the Max Planck Institut für Marine Mikrobiologie, Bremen. Boomer, while obviously smart and experienced, describes himself as "I had double majors in Geology and Zoology with a minor in Chemistry and many graduate level classes but never finished" who owns "...4 zeolite text books". I'll take Kallmeyer's word first every time.

Careful what you read Arthur. What does this show? No miss here.

Well, you said:

zeolites (in there traditional use) are of little use in saltwater. This makes sense to me.

And he said The Zeolites now used for seawater preferentially absorb ammonium

Looks like a "swing and a miss" to me.

Back to top

You need to go "Back to school", looks like.

Quote: Do you think is is due to rapidly decreasing phosphate and nirtate, which stresses the corals?

do you think this is why?

"No, although I can't say for sure. "

So you are saying you disagree with what the manufacturer says?

No, I said, "I can't say for sure", meaning I don't know. Interestingly enough, though, Dr. Kallmeyer seems to think so:

In rather old tanks with higher nutrient concentrations, the corals were well adapted to these conditions and the sudden drop caused massive die-off of colonies that had been growing well over decades. The corals starved and became susceptible to parasites and diseases. If the corals did not starve to death, the parasites killed them. It seems that tanks that have started with Zeolite filtration run very well and without major problems, while old established tanks are much more sensitive to it.

When switching from a different system to Zeolite filtration, some reports mention times of up to one year before the effects of the new system came fully apparent. Don’t forget that Zeolites are the most effective ammonium absorbers available. Keep a close watch on your corals, and measure the nutrient levels at least once a day over the first week. If the corals react too drastically to the changes in water quality the amount of Zeolite needs to be reduced.

Strike two. (wait, you guys play Cricket here instead, right?)

Arthur

[AJL]

c'mon boys, this is becoming tiresome. this is for both of you

I agree with that (I think I'm the bum in the middle). Layton has been very forceful in his opinions re: zeovit, but any sort of analysis shows they're paper thin. He simply can't admit that, and keeps claiming "I've already shown that." Where? How can he keep any credibility while making claims like:

zeolites don't add anything to the system. (August '04)

zeobac doesn't add anything to the system. (August '04)

continual dosing of bacteria is not necessary. (January '05)

One by one these statements are shown false, yet he still makes them. Now we're back to "Zeolites don't adsorb ammonia in saltwater", when qualified marine biologists beg to disagree. All this from an Electrical Engineering student who read a book once for a paper.

Perhaps they should consult you prior to publishing papers on marine biology, Layton?

Arthur

[chimera]

[AJL]

I love that "smiley".

Arthur

[chimera]

it appears you are both so set in your ways, neither will admit they are wrong. its perhaps not even a matter of being wrong or right, just two opposing opinions about a product that appears to have no defining "scientific evidence" on it. Am I right to say that zeovit is all based around theory than hard core scientific proof?

[AJL]

My only contention has been, and continues to be, that Layton has no scientific principle on which he can rely to make the claim that the product can't work the way the manufacturer says it does. That's it. I don't know how it does what it does (I just know it does, IME), so I have no theory of my own to promulgate or vehemently defend, but it seems to me that if Layton is going to make what is essentially a slanderous claim, he needs to have some sort of proof. He has offered none. He has offered theories, but theories about alternate mechanisms do not give one the right to say the other theories (including the one by the manufacturer) can't be true. He seems unable or unwilling to understand that.

Arthur

[lduncan]

Yip, but my point is, is that your are not JUST adding bacteria when you add zeobac. Do you know what else is in it? How do you know that something else is not having an effect?

I don't, but since you're the one who made a point about it, you're the one that has to indicate why it makes a difference.

No I don't. I don't know what is in there, so how can I say why or if it makes a difference. That's why I asked the question "How do you know that something else is not having an effect?"

Sure: "It permanently absorbs ammonium (NH4+) and ammonia (NH3) the first two chemicals..."

Where is that quote?

Don't tell me you haven't read the zeoguide?

And in any case, from Kallmeyer: Don’t forget that Zeolites are the most effective ammonium absorbers available.

Depends under what conditions. And also because they are the most effective ammonium absorbers available, does not imply anything about how effective they are at absorbing ammonia in saltwater when covered in bacteria.

More qualified than Boomer in determining the effects of zeolites in marine aquariums. Kallmeyer is a Doctor at the Max Planck Institut für Marine Mikrobiologie, Bremen. Boomer, while obviously smart and experienced, describes himself as "I had double majors in Geology and Zoology with a minor in Chemistry and many graduate level classes but never finished" who owns "...4 zeolite text books". I'll take Kallmeyer's word first every time.

Careful what you read Arthur. What does this show? No miss here.

Well, you said:

zeolites (in there traditional use) are of little use in saltwater. This makes sense to me.

And he said The Zeolites now used for seawater preferentially absorb ammonium

Yip, they preferentially absorb ammonium, like I said. How strong is this preference relative to calcium? Also what happens when the surface is covered with bacteria?

Quote: Do you think is is due to rapidly decreasing phosphate and nirtate, which stresses the corals?

do you think this is why?

"No, although I can't say for sure. "

So you are saying you disagree with what the manufacturer says?

No, I said, "I can't say for sure", meaning I don't know.

So you don't have faith in the manufacturer in this claim then. They seem to know for sure.

Interestingly enough, though, Dr. Kallmeyer seems to think so:

In rather old tanks with higher nutrient concentrations, the corals were well adapted to these conditions and the sudden drop caused massive die-off of colonies that had been growing well over decades. The corals starved and became susceptible to parasites and diseases. If the corals did not starve to death, the parasites killed them. It seems that tanks that have started with Zeolite filtration run very well and without major problems, while old established tanks are much more sensitive to it.

Hmm... why does this only happen when zeolites are used?

When switching from a different system to Zeolite filtration, some reports mention times of up to one year before the effects of the new system came fully apparent. Don’t forget that Zeolites are the most effective ammonium absorbers available. Keep a close watch on your corals, and measure the nutrient levels at least once a day over the first week. If the corals react too drastically to the changes in water quality the amount of Zeolite needs to be reduced.

Hmm... maybe it's not the drop in "nutrients".

[lduncan]

theories about alternate mechanisms do not give one the right to say the other theories (including the one by the manufacturer) can't be true. He seems unable or unwilling to understand that.

That's true. I am not using my alternate theory as a reason why some of the manufacturers claims just don't happen, or work.

You seem to be unwilling to understand that i'm not doing that.

[wasp]

Layton still waiting for a shred of proof for any of your claims.

You say I have not produced proof either. Either you were on another planet at the time, or you are even more confused than I thought.

Fact is, I have backed what I have said with references to studies and expert commentary from qualified scientists.

Still waiting for a shred of proof from you. However the real reason you never produce proof for your theories is that there is none.

[dogcatcher]

No I don't. I don't know what is in there, so how can I say why or if it makes a difference. That's why I asked the question "How do you know that something else is not having an effect?"

Well if you want to play your game, then i'll play. Maybe you will see how it gets nowhere.

do you think that something else in zeobac is having an effect?

But, i will go one step farther and ask how and why you think that. Then if you could tell me what would be in there that could be added in such small quantities and still have an affect on established aquariums, i'd sure like to know what it is.

why hide it in zeobac?

why not hide it in another product? or better yet, why not make it it's own product so the manufacturer can make even more money.

Now, why do you ask questions like that?

[lduncan]

I'm done with this thread. Have fun.

Layton

[AJL]

Hmm... why does this only happen when zeolites are used?

As the author explained, a zeolite filter system can be extremely efficient in removing nutrients, far more so than a standard filter. It can drop the nutrient level to a point where it can shock corals more used to a high nutrient environment. With his statement, what proof do you have that it's not true?

Hmm... maybe it's not the drop in "nutrients".

Well, a Doctor in Marine Biology thinks it is, and an Electrical Engineering student thinks it's not. You'll forgive us if we side with him, won't you?

That's true. I am not using my alternate theory as a reason why some of the manufacturers claims just don't happen, or work.

Then what the heck are you using? How do you make that claim? If it's your zeolite claim, there is evidence that ammonium is adsorbed, and that the bacterial filter that grows up around it also aids in the removal. So why do you keep saying over and over again that zeovit cannot possibly work the way they say it does? If you don't even use your theory, what proof do you have?

Arthur

[reef]

SO WHAT?? time to move on. 27 pages of worthless information.

[AJL]

I'm surprised you feel it's OK for someone to slander a product, insist the manufacturer is lying, dodge the question when asked for proof, and then do it all over again, week after week after week.

Well, maybe not surprised...

Arthur

[wasp]

I'm done with this thread. Have fun.

Layton

Trouble is, I've heard that before. Several times.

Over the last 27 pages you have not even backed up one of your claims with a shred of proof, unlike the rest of us who have referenced studies, and expert commentary from scientists.

It is really an insult to the people who have taken the time to read this thread to bombard them with all this piffle.

I feel degraded at having been through it all.

[wasp]

.

Well, hope that's all over.

Anyhow, to something more cheerful, not sure if it's my imagination but I THINK one of my new sps is showing a tad more colour than yesterday. If so, I may be able to post another pic in a week or two.

Fingers crossed

[RnB]

I think I agree with reef here....

Arthur thanks for responding to my post.....

so far I have not really learn anything except

1. Most things are probably removed in the skimate.......

2. Zeoliths are very porus in nature (I am taking people word here but sounds solid)

I really want to understand how the zeo system can possible change the hydrophilic/hydrophobic nature of things in the water coloumn.... This i believe is the main benefit of the zeo system, however its doing it.

wasp - nice corals, good idea to do the before piccies!

Peter

[wasp]

Picked up some more sps yesterday, so I'm putting the "before" pics of the two biggest ones.

Also, I'm not responding to questions about where they came from, publicly or privately. This is simply because I do not wish to be dragged into any of the politics around that.

Sorry about my lousy photography, I took a whole bunch to try to get it right, but this was the best I could do.

[wasp]

That's strange! Just noticed the previous pics I posted are gone. Wonder what happened there?

[chimera]

I assume you're doing before and after with Zeovit? If so cool, will post mine before and after without Zeovit Of course, Zeovit is not the only difference between our tanks so not exactly a strong test case but interesting to see nonetheless.