lduncan Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Nope. I'll post later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Four words, or one number? In the time you said "I'll post later", you could have just as easily given me a single number, representing which of the 4 items I posted was incorrect. Fine, we await your response. Which is not possible, or is unlikely? Arthur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Well all i can say is that for a guy who said - I have been known to be wrong . And have no problem admitting that when the time comes. You seem to be having a huge problem with the concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Can we drop the subject and get on with life. so far 19 pages of blah blah. Can we see some zeovit tanks in action. like pics. before after pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 1) Totally possible. Your saying conditions may not be suitable without dosing zeofood. This is consistent with what I have said. If the conditions are suitable, bacteria will grow. 2) Totally possible. Again, that would be the fact that tanks conditions may not be suitable without dosing zeofood. Which is consistent with what I have said. 3) Again, this suggests that conditions are not right for whatever bacteria you may be adding. It depends entirely on the dosing of zeofood. Which is consistent with what I have said. There are other issues in there but I won't go there. If indeed what you have said actually happens, you have to ask yourself, why bother with such and unstable method of reducing these nutrients? There are easier, cheaper, stable, and less time consuming methods. The main flaw in most of your arguments is that you are not putting things in the context provided by your reef tank, AND the manufacturers claims, and you are not arguing against what I'm actually saying, yet saying that i'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 So just to make sure: you agree that the theory I proposed is feasible? If so, there is at least one possibilty reason why the bacteria in zeobac would need to be redosed periodically. This possibility contradicts your statement: continually adding bacteria is pointless. If zeobac works the way I proposed, it would need to be continually added. I doubt I've struck upon the only possible theory, so it looks like there are at least some reasons why "continually adding bacteria" is not "pointless." Your assumption regarding zeobac, that there is no possible reason it would need to be continually dosed, has proven to be as unsubstantiated as your initial assumption regarding zeolites. I'm wondering if you're ready to admit you were wrong as you did for the zeolite assumption in August. If indeed what you have said actually happens, you have to ask yourself, why bother with such and unstable method of reducing these nutrients? There are easier, cheaper, stable, and less time consuming methods. First of all, that was not the point of this discussion: the point was to show that your assumption that there is no good reason to have to kep dosing zeobac was incorrect, which has been done. However, in the interest of moving on... Zoevit is not simply a phosphate remover. While it effectively does that in a way that no other phsophate remover did for my tank (e.g. phosban), it is a complete system that has, in many documented cases, had an astounding effect on SPS color, growth and polyp extension. Empirically, I've demonstrated to my satisfaction and that of others that it has improved my tank considerably. At $25US/100G/month, it's cheaper than other methods I've used. I think those are excellent reasons, frankly. You disagree. But your initial diatribes against it (zeolites do nothing, zeobac does nothing, etc.) seem to be falling one by one. The main flaw in most of your arguments is that you are not putting things in the context provided by your reef tank The 4 points I listed and that you agreed with are meant for discussion within a reef tank, specifically for removal of phosphates, which is only one aspect of the system. AND the manufacturers claims I assume you have proof to back the assertion that the manufacturer's claims are incorrect? and you are not arguing against what I'm actually saying, yet saying that i'm wrong. You seem unwilling or unable to realize that your latest assertion regarding zeovit, that continually dosing zeobac is unnecessary, has been proven incorrect: there are multiple theories why it would be necessary, and you can no longer claim with any degree of certainty that there is no reason it should be necessary. Since you said zeolites add nothing to the system, which has been shown to be untrue, and that there is no reason the bacteria in zeobac should need to be continually dosed, which has now been show to be untrue (I've posted at least one of them), we're waiting anxiously for your next pronouncement, written in stone. Arthur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Be a real good idea to drop it, I agree, and in fact a few pages ago I did try to end it. But we have this guy keep coming back talking a load of contradictory nonsense and saying the zeovit system is poisonous, does not work, etc. This misinformation sticks in my craw because I use the zeovit filtration system and it has achieved fine results for me, I do not see how I could ask for better water quality. You don't see me going around critisizing other systems, and making false and unproven statements. If he could just "fess up" the obvious that he is wrong, this whole thing will be over. But he continues to dig himself deeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBlog Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I have considered using Zeovit and just as Reef, I would like to see some before and after pictures. I have seen individual pictures of various tanks that do use Zeovit and they all seem to be very nice. However to get a (bottom line) idea of the benefits of the system, it would be helpful (at least to me) to see a time line comparison of these tanks. Thanks, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Arthur now I am beginning to see why you were banned from reefcentral. You inability to read what people have written and understand it gets you into trouble. wasp you are headed in the same direction too. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 In the absense of anything sensible to say, critisize someone for something else. "All truth passes through three stages: First it is Ridiculed. Second, it is Violently Opposed. Third, it is Accepted as being Self-Evident.â€â€”Arthur Schopenhauer (1778-1860) Why not just drop it Layton, I don't see the point in constantly flogging a dead horse. And everybody except you can see that your theories on zeovit IS a dead horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 You mean you and Arthur. Ignorance is bliss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Again, in the absense of anything sensible to say, critisize someone. Come and test my water. Then tell me I'm ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Arthur now I am beginning to see why you were banned from reefcentral. Cheapshot anticipated. Be proud that it took you this long. Congrats. Doesn't change the focus, though: - You claim there is no good reason to dose zeobac continuously. - I demonstrate simple theory showing why it might be necessary, which you agree is viable. -In the absence of data on contents of zeobac, your assertion that there could be no good reason to continually dose bacteria in zeobac is refuted. QED. Arthur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Actually AJL, the guy is reduced to hurling insults now, the basest of human reactions. We can surmise from that he is beaten and knows it. Insults are the only thing left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Along with his earlier assertion, then subsequent retraction, that zeolites do nothing, he's 0 for 2 on his understanding of zeovit. Arthur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 this is more fun then when great aunt mable caught her left t** in the mangle....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 - You claim there is no good reason to dose zeobac continuously. My claims were qualified. Also it was not a cheap shot at all. You got banned because you did not listen. wasp, I don't need to test your water. You know why? Because I am not saying the system doesn't work! I'm not even saying that adding bacteria is completely useless. I'm not criticising anyone personally for no reason. But when you continues to misconstrue what I have said and twist it into some sort of "zeo bashing" statement then I am justified in saying these things. You constantly say I have said things that I have not. It's annoying. I'm done on this topic. There is so much crap surrounding zeovit it's just beyond a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I have considered using Zeovit and just as Reef, I would like to see some before and after pictures. I have seen individual pictures of various tanks that do use Zeovit and they all seem to be very nice. However to get a (bottom line) idea of the benefits of the system, it would be helpful (at least to me) to see a time line comparison of these tanks. Thanks, Steve Joe, Thanks for a sensible question / suggestion. For me, I cannot do a before & after, because my tank is a softy only up until recently, I have only just aquired sps, there has not been enough time frame to do the "after" However, if you would like an opinion on my water quality, I would invite you to pm Reef, who saw my tank recently. I suggest Reef, because you know he will not be biased towards zeovit, anything complimentary he would say would at least be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Layton I'm glad you are done, but I would have to say you have said that before. Now perhaps some sensible discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Along with his earlier assertion, then subsequent retraction, that zeolites do nothing, he's 0 for 2 on his understanding of zeovit. Arthur Um, the zeolites are of limited use in terms of ion exchange, to the point of being irrelevant. Even when fresh, and any effect diminishes even further as bacterial colonies cover the surface. This is contrary to the claims made by the manufactures. Natural zeolites (which zeovit clearly is) do not exchange significant amounts of ammonia in non sterile saltwater, and the absorbtion which does take place reduces substantially when colonised by bacteria. What they do do, is provide an element which is has been found to be limiting in aquaria, which effect algae. Which is the reason I said I was wrong earlier. The zeoguide is still wrong in it's claim, which was why I stated that in the first place. Arthur, do you understand how zeovit works? If so explain. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 And just to remove the possibility of any future cheap shots at me, I put it on record here that I too have been banned at reef central, along with 1/2 the other zeovit users. I have no idea what for, if anyone cares to search my recent posts and find something banworthy, please let me know. Meantime I assume it is simply because I use zeovit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Layton, you said you were done. I was looking forward to some sensible discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 which element do they provide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Joe, Thanks for a sensible question / suggestion. For me, I cannot do a before & after, because my tank is a softy only up until recently, I have only just aquired sps, there has not been enough time frame to do the "after" However, if you would like an opinion on my water quality, I would invite you to pm Reef, who saw my tank recently. I suggest Reef, because you know he will not be biased towards zeovit, anything complimentary he would say would at least be honest. Alois has told me of your water parameters, and he was impressed. I have never had a detectable phosphate reading, and ran my most recent reef for over a year with completely undetectable nitrate, before a heater malfunction upset everything. I feed heavily and have what I would call I high stocking level. Very few problems keeping parameters in check here. Nitrate is returning to 0 after the move late last year, currently sitting at under 2ppm and dropping. I believe that zeovit does not work solely by dropping parameters such as nitrate and phosphate. And does not work as described in the zeoguide. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 which element do they provide? That's any easy one, as mentioned previously. Iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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