Looking at going saltwater.......

[breakaway]

Hi Guys,

Ive been putting serious thought into going saltwater. However, the huge cost is somewhat stopping me. So Ive decided to look into nano-reefs. I have been reading up about live rock, sand, filteration, cycling, etc. at www.nano-reef.com/articles , and I believe that this option is most feasible for me.

Now its question asking time (whoopie 8) )

1. What kind of lighting do I need? I hear that PowerCompacts are good for this purpose. I was wondering if someone would tell me how much it would cost me.

2. Would it be safe to just go to the closest beach (mission bay) and pick up some sand for my substrate?

3. As an alternate to buying salt mix for your tank, can you collect sea water? If you collect sea water, where do you get it from? Ive heard that its a bad idea to get it from a beach because of run offs.

4. Where do I get my live rock from? Are any of you reefers out there willing to sell me some?

5. I am planning to start out with a 50 Litre tank, how many power heads will I need to keep a decent amount of circulation? I plan on keeping soft corals and fish.

6. Ive heard that evaporation can cause salinity change problems in small tanks. How do auto top up pumps work, and are they expensive. Is it easy to build a DIY one?

As I have more questions I will be posting them in this thread.

Thanx for any help in advance

[lduncan]

Some answers:

1. Lighting Depends on what you want to keep, for a nano, T5's would allow you to keep most types of corals. Cost? I don't know, I don't use them, I'd imagine about the same as normal flouro fittings?

2. You could go to the beach to get sand. BUT the sand usually used in saltwater tanks is carbonate based, sand around NZ is silica based. People may try to warn you about using silica based sand, saying that it causes diatom blooms, but the fact is that is doesn't. Personally, I think it is too fine grained to be used in tanks, (unless in a remote deep sand bed for filtration). You should be able to pick up some carbonate based coral sand from Hollywoods, or Jansens. If you must use beach sand, try to wash it thoroughly before using (not a particularly easy task if it is fine grained).

3. You can collect sea water. Many people on this board do, and have so far seemed to have success with it. Personally with the money I spend on my tank, i'm not willing to trust it, all for the sake of $120. As for suitable collection locations in Auckland, ask some locals like jetskisteve.

4. Live rock, this is probably one of the more annoying parts of the hobby. MAF requires that live rock is stored DRY for the 3 week quarantine period. Effectively making it dead rock. You can buy dry rock from shops about $11/kg, or you may be able to get some live rock from others on this board. I started with all dead rock, no life at all. All the life came from the rocks which corals were attached to when I brought them.

5. Try to aim for about 15+ turnover per hour. May look like a lot but corals will be much better off for it, and the fish won't be bothered by it. Flow is one of the underrated parameters in a successful aquarium I think.

6. Auto topoff can be expensive, almost all use peristaltic pumps (same type as those used in medicine for pumping blood in dialysis machines). I think this is why they are usually so expensive, they are made to be ultra high reliable, and no one seems to make cheap ones for uses such as this.

Layton

[Ira]

1. Lighting Depends on what you want to keep, for a nano, T5's would allow you to keep most types of corals. Cost? I don't know, I don't use them, I'd imagine about the same as normal flouro fittings?

They're more expensive. All I've seen around actually for sale are small ones at lighting places but seemed to be around twice the price, then there are aquatic ones that you'd have to look hard to find around here and they're even MORE expensive.

2. You could go to the beach to get sand. BUT the sand usually used in saltwater tanks is carbonate based

Calcium based, actually.

3. You can collect sea water. Many people on this board do, and have so far seemed to have success with it. Personally with the money I spend on my tank, i'm not willing to trust it, all for the sake of $120. As for suitable collection locations in Auckland, ask some locals like jetskisteve.

I estimated the cost for me with my smaller tank to be around $100/ month and that's only with small water changes on 200L tank. So, IMO better moneywise collecting seawater.

6. Auto topoff can be expensive, almost all use peristaltic pumps (same type as those used in medicine for pumping blood in dialysis machines). I think this is why they are usually so expensive, they are made to be ultra high reliable, and no one seems to make cheap ones for uses such as this.

You can also DIY one, mine cost me about $100 including a heatgun to bend some perspex. Still needs some refinements, but just an air pump, jerry can, float valve and a few other little bits.

[breakaway]

Heres a few more questions:

1. How do you feed corals or anemones? Do you have to do anything special?

2. What is target feeding?

3. Where do you salties collect your sea water from?

4. Do you guys know any places where I can get lights (hoods anb bulbs for PowerCompacts) from (other than my LFS, they tend to be expensive)

Thanx

[Pies]

T5s can be found at most electrical suppliers. Trade makes the 5 foot tubes about $22ea for 6500K 'daylight' triphospher. So not too expensive at all. They are a pretty standard unit these days.

Use NSW if you can source a good supply of it. I use NSW and have a huge financial investment in my tank and want nothing but the best for it, so am using NSW because I belive it better not because its cheaper. If you decide to use ASW factor in $300+ for a water filter system too.

A 50 litre tank is just too small. Try and find a 4 footer if you can. Personally I struggle enough with my water paramaters with over 1000 litres of water, 50 litres of water would be a maintenance and testkit nightmare. You have been warned.

Top off is very important, more important in a smaller tank. I would buy a peristolic pump and be done with it if it was me, but they are expensive ($200+).

Feeding coral and anemones and target feeding. Target feeding is when you take a piece of food (say shrimp) and use tongs or a stick and feed it directly to the coral or anemone until it takes it and starts to eat it. I personally don't target feed any of my anemones or corals. The less food that goes in the tank the better.

Lighting, again any electrical supplier. I would find a source of bulbs first before deciding on lighting. T5s or normal fluros will proably be OK for a shallow tank (400mm or shallower). Find the bulbs (blue 03 actinic or 6500-10000K or a mixture most likley). Then build you reflector around it. Reflectors are common and can easily be made. There may be some good deals on T5s with gull wing reflectors here if you stick about I am sure someone can do you a deal.

Good luck

Pie

[dan_from_nz]

I started off wanting to start a nano, then decided on a 4foot bow front with no sump and now I have decided on a 4foot bow front with a 4 foot bowfront sump and a 4foot standard refuge. After reading alot I decided it didn't cost that much more relative to how much extra space you have and in the long run if you'r going to get fewer problems it will save you money. Plus if it is anything like fresh water I brought so many tanks so fast that I ended up wish I just brought myself the big tank with a good filter etc to start with

Good luck

Daniel

[ben19185074]

Remember if you go to a electrical suppliers for your T5 make sure you ask for T5 (HO) which is high output and not the standard T5. They have a big difference in both price and output of lights.

By the way i don't think a lot of the electrical suppliers sells the blue tubes too...

[Kermit]

You've just got to get the wright wholesaler, and get the wright person.

I.e Rexel (wholesaler) and talk to a lighting rep, helps if you have a specific lamp type, colour, and model, obveously they can't get all makes as they will deal with certain lighting companies (osram, Sylvania, philips, etc....).

be specific and it'll help you and them to track something for you, helps if your in the trade tho, or know someone in the trade as they will look after the trade price wise.

50L tank is realy, realy small dude, i don't even think i could keep that up and going for long myself.

Bigger is better in this hobby.

Kermit

[lduncan]

Just a warning... nano's are a specialist area in this hobby. It is much harder to maintain than a larger tank. All the ones that i have seen look very average at best. There are very good reasons for this, mainly because they are very high maintenance.

Personally I would not recommend a tank smaller than 4 foot for someone wanting to start out in this hobby. It really does make a difference. A sump would also be a requirement as far as I'm concerned.

Layton

[jetskisteve]

And just to confirm I AGREE

[Brianemone]

the only real price difference between a four foot and a 50l is the tank its self and the lighting and maybe a little more for watermovement gadgets,

either way you would idealy want a good skimmer, a sump is a good idea regardless of the size of the main tank

[breakaway]

All the ones that i have seen look very average at best.

Edit: http://www.nano-reef.com/gallery/data/2 ... 04-med.jpg

Is that considered average?

Anyway, you guys are really starting to put me off nano reef. Looks like ill have to wait a few years before getting a 4 foot setup, ive heard its murder on your wallet.

[Brianemone]

id be very dissapointed if mine looked like that, no fish or coral just a red x

[lduncan]

Calcium based, actually.

Well actually there is more carbonate than calcium (due to other metal carbonates, such as Magnesium (approx 10%), plus other metal carbonates in much lower quantities), So carbonate based is probably more correct. But whose picking.

Layton

[lduncan]

Is that considered average?

To me... yes. But maybe I just have higher standards than others?

Anyway, you guys are really starting to put me off nano reef. Looks like ill have to wait a few years before getting a 4 foot setup, ive heard its murder on your wallet.

Believe me, a nano would be worse on your wallet than a 4 footer. No one is trying to put you off, just letting you know what you'll be in for, it's not easy. I know I speak from experience. Starting off with a 29 gal tank was the worst mistake I ever made.

Layton

[chris_kerryn]

Take it from me. I set up my 75 litre tank 3-4 months ago and am having problems with it. I have had 2 out of 4 fish die. I am a few months ahead of you and dont know much, but from what I have learned, I advise you to go bigger too. Don't buy a readymade tank with the lights and filter on either as you will soon throw all that away. I am already planning a bigger tank. you are really limited to what you can put in a small tank. All the nice things you see in the shops, you can probably choose from about 1 quarter of them for your tank which sucks.

I collect my seawater by St Helliers, as long as the weather is calm. I dont think it is responsible for the problems I've had, but who knows. Others get theirs from Takapuna which is just as clean or polluted and they have no problems.

[suphew]

Ditto, mines 100L, upgrade already on the way.

[Kermit]

I'd be surprised if they're 50L tanks...

I had a 50L tank as a quarantine tank, man talk about a pain in the jack c.

I'm going to in the next month set up a nano and it's going to hold 160L (sump and all) and i wouldn't even want to go less than that.

Then in March/April it's the 2000L island monster O yeah.

More water the better and what these guy's have been saying about sumps isssss true, man i wouldn't know what to do with out the sump makes a good place to dump your chem's in as by the time it gets into the main tank it's all diluited.

In the end it's up to you, if you want to try it out in the 50L then it's your choice and good luck hope it does go well.

As we have all had a taste in the hobby and know what we can get away with we are just trying to share the knowledge and would like to see it go well for you as a first timer.

Regards

Kermit

[livebearer_breeder]

step back a sec and look at all this from a noobs perspective, half the stuff you guys say hes not going to understand. I mean i only just found a site explaining exactly what a sump was and how to go about making one 10 mins ago. Now i think i will add a sump to my nano. But what im trying to say is explain in full detail what you mean, when explaining to someone who want to start out and doesnt have a clue where to start.

Shae

[Ira]

Ok, the simple explanation. "Bigger is better"

[Kermit]

half the stuff you guys say hes not going to understand.

True, here's an attachment dude.

http://www.reefcentral.com/modules.php? ... d=1&page=5

Hope this helps, if you want you could go back to page 1 and read all about marine systems.

kermit

[breakaway]

So what do I need to do for a sump?

Can you just get a container and throw your heater in there? Or do you have to light it?

Can someone show me how to make a sump? Remember, the soul purpose of the sump is to increase water volume. So im guessing that wouldnt be too much work.

Another one of my problems is the space Ive got. Thats why I was keen on a single unit. There is simply no space. I suppose I could drill holes on the floor (which is above the under-house storage) and put some pipes through. This space under the house is even less (actually there is absolutely no insulation) insulated then the actual house, which means more heat loss = more $$$ power bill for heating. I dont want to have the sump in the house simply because there is no space, and also because it is noisy.

So I will need to insulate the pipes and the sump (or water container) with polestyerene. Is this feasible?

[jetskisteve]

if u have space under your tank thats where the sump goes, the bigger the better but in your case whatever fits, in the sump(which is just a tank ) you put your heater & a pump to push the water back up! Oh also your skimmer which should be the biggest one you can afford this is THE most important bit! Steve

[lduncan]

The main reason for a sump is to keep the equipment out of the tank. Things like skimmers, heaters and pumps take up a lot of room. The increase in water volume is a bonus.

What you have described with the pipes through the floor sounds ideal. I wouldn't bother insulating the pipes though. PVC doesn't transfer much heat at all.

The sump itself could be an old tank, or a plastic container from payless plastics, or something similar.

Plus what Steve said. Make sure you have a good skimmer.

Layton

[Kermit]

Ok, a sump is usually a container (small rectangular glass/plastic tank) that has

been divided into more then one section using glass dividers.

Usually the first section (were the tank water returns into the sump) is were you put your bio balls, Rock, or what have you, this were your bacteria will grow and live and act as your filter.

The reason bio balls or Rock (a really porus rock is recomended) is used is becuase of the large surface area, more surface area more bacteria, better filtration.

The second section is were you put your heater, skimmer, return pump (water returned to tank) that way you don't have unsightly objects in the tank, except for your circulating pumps.

No you don't need lights for a sump.

Attached is diagram for simple sump.

Kermit