Whitespot - Come and gone?

[DennisP]

Since the quake saturday morning and then losing power for 4 hours, my tank got dow to about 22 degrees. There was no loss of life but I have been looking out for white spot since.

Yesterday, just before going to bed I had one more check over and BOOM, my 2 orange discus were covered in white spots. It wasn't grains of sand like it sometimes is and they were everywhere. I had to keep myself calm and assure myself they would be fine until the morning.

This morning when I woke up I had another look to see how they were doing and the spots have almost all vanished.

One of the discus has 2 of the little dots on that fine dotted line running across its body, which I think is just a superficial wound from bumping into something, but it has about 2 other spots left. The other orange discus only has about 2 dots left also. Only the two orange ones have been effected from what I can see.

Back to the main point, Yesterday night they were everywhere, this morning they're pretty much gone.

Is this normal?

Is it whitespot?

Should I still treat?

Is it gone?

[MarkLB]

The white spots fall off the fish but will be in the gravel etc. I would treat the tank. Have a read of this article.......

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

[Aquila]

If it were me, I would not bother treating at all if it already disappeared. White spot is always present in your tank, its only a matter of when the fish get stressed that causes them to become suseptible to it. Since its a discus tank, you the temp is likely back up close to 30, the outbreak will have run its course quickly and the fish will be fine.

Just keep an eye on them and keep up with your regular water changes

[DennisP]

Thankyou, didn't realize that was the case. They would have been stressed by me catching twenty something neons and moving the tank around yesterday.

[MarkLB]

This is from the article I linked to....

When the parasite is visible to the naked eye, it is a nearly fully developed trophont which has burrowed under the fish’s mucus coating where it is protected from chemicals (medication). It has likely been feeding on the body fluid of the fish for several days and has swelled to many times its original size. At common aquarium temperatures of 75 to 80ºF this feeding stage lasts only a few days, at which point the fully developed cyst drops off the fish as a tomont.

The tomont may swim for several hours before settling on and attaching to the substrate, a plant, or some other surface. During that time it is susceptible to chemicals and medication will be effective. Once attached, it begins its reproductive stage. It encysts and begins rapidly dividing. At this point, it is again immune to chemicals. Within a few days, hundreds of new organisms burst from the cyst, sprout cilia and start swimming in search of a host.

These are now referred to as thermonts or swarmers, and they must find a host within a few days or they will die. (For this reason, we know that even an aquarium heavily infested with Ich would be “clean” and safe for new fish after only a week or two without fish in the tank.) Medication is effective at this stage. Once the thermont attaches to a host and burrows in, it is referred to as a trophont and the cycle begins again. Unfortunately, with each cycle the number of organisms in the tank increases dramatically.

[DennisP]

Yeah, it doesn't sound good.

I will keep an eye out for it and will be ready for when it returns.

I would assume though that not all the parasites detach and reproduce in unison so they will always be present on the fish.

[Stella]

If it were me, I would not bother treating at all if it already disappeared. White spot is always present in your tank, its only a matter of when the fish get stressed that causes them to become suseptible to it.

Sorry, this is completely inaccurate.

If the free-swimming stage does not find a host within a few days (time length is dictated by temperature) it will die.

There is absolutely no inert stage that can survive long periods off the host.

Whitespot can lurk undetected for long periods at low levels, infecting the gills of fish. But when the fish get stressed their immunity is lowered and then the parasite can get a foothold more easily on the fish and things go nuts. However, once eliminated from an aquarium, it will only resurface if it is reintroduced on fish, or on plants etc that are harbouring the encysted stage.

There is a problem where people do not medicated for long enough to kill the last of the free-swimmers. This occurs where people use treatment directions intended for tropical temperatures, or when people stop medicating when they see the last spot fall off (rather than until after the last spot must have encysted and the swimmers hatched out).

From the excellent (and actually science-based) Skeptical Aquarist site:

There is no "dormant" independent, long-term encysted life stage separate from a host fish for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This is useful to know. You will often hear to the contrary. Dr. Peter Burgess, who took Ichthyophthirius multifiliis as his Ph.D. subject at Plymouth University, mentioned among Ich "old wives' tales" that "It's present in all aquariums." "What utter rubbish" noted Dr. Burgess (in the Nov 2001 Practical Fishkeeping).

This page on whitespot should be considered required reading for all fishkeepers:

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

[LYNDYLOO]

Good Informative Link

Thanks

[Aquila]

Thats fair enough. Didn't realized that no dormant stage existed. I know the free-swimming stage doesn't last long, but I figured the cysts in the substrate do.

How is it that his discus suddenly go infected out of nowhere? The too possible options are that he either introduced fish recently or that his discus have been midly infected all along.

My comment was based on the fact that I would find it difficult to believe that most people have completely eliminated Ich from their aquariums without several courses of medications. Whether or not the Ich is left in a dormant stage or is continuously infecting the fish in extemely small numbers (which are not visible), it is more important to concentrate on the fish being happy and have clean water. Putting them through, what i think, is uneccessary treatment when they have already fought off the infection will just add to their stress.

Sorry, this is completely inaccurate.

If the free-swimming stage does not find a host within a few days (time length is dictated by temperature) it will die.

There is absolutely no inert stage that can survive long periods off the host.

Whitespot can lurk undetected for long periods at low levels, infecting the gills of fish. But when the fish get stressed their immunity is lowered and then the parasite can get a foothold more easily on the fish and things go nuts. However, once eliminated from an aquarium, it will only resurface if it is reintroduced on fish, or on plants etc that are harbouring the encysted stage.

There is a problem where people do not medicated for long enough to kill the last of the free-swimmers. This occurs where people use treatment directions intended for tropical temperatures, or when people stop medicating when they see the last spot fall off (rather than until after the last spot must have encysted and the swimmers hatched out).

From the excellent (and actually science-based) Skeptical Aquarist site:

This page on whitespot should be considered required reading for all fishkeepers:

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

[DennisP]

Thats fair enough. Didn't realized that no dormant stage existed. I know the free-swimming stage doesn't last long, but I figured the cysts in the substrate do.

How is it that his discus suddenly go infected out of nowhere? The too possible options are that he either introduced fish recently or that his discus have been midly infected all along.

My comment was based on the fact that I would find it difficult to believe that most people have completely eliminated Ich from their aquariums without several courses of medications. Whether or not the Ich is left in a dormant stage or is continuously infecting the fish in extemely small numbers (which are not visible), it is more important to concentrate on the fish being happy and have clean water. Putting them through, what i think, is uneccessary treatment when they have already fought off the infection will just add to their stress.

Your answer is within stella's quote.

When the fish get stressed, (in my case losing power and then colder water) the fish's immune system weakens and the present parasites can take hold.

[Aquila]

Your answer is within stella's quote.

When the fish get stressed, (in my case losing power and then colder water) the fish's immune system weakens and the present parasites can take hold.

But the evidence Stella gave said that Ich doesn't lie dormant, therefore the fish must have had a minor infection all along.

[DennisP]

I see.

Don't know if I read it in here, on in a different site but it something along the lines of...

There is always ich amongst your gravel and (something to do with in the gills although this sounds rather too serious to be acknowledged as harmless...

But then.. when your fish get stressed etc etc etc.

Thats enough to keep me satisfied about my knowledge of whitespot...

Maybe not for you though :lol:

[Stella]

But the evidence Stella gave said that Ich doesn't lie dormant, therefore the fish must have had a minor infection all along.

Exactly.

Whitespot CANNOT come from nowhere, and they CANNOT live long-term off a host.

Dennis, there can be no question as to what happened to your tank:

1: there was low-level infection with whitespot, probably in the gills so you couldn't see it

2: the fish were otherwise healthy, so the whitespot could not cause a major outbreak

3: the fish were stressed by the drop in temperature

4: whitespot outbreak.

And unless you thoroughly treat your aquarium, maintaining the treatment for several lifecycles, your aquarium goes back to #1, and you will get an outbreak the next time the fish stress enough to become susceptible.

The infection in the gills is fairly harmless, because it is at a very low level. Your fish looked healthy before the quake, right? But at least one of them had at least one parasite in their gills for the past however long.

[DennisP]

I see.

I am treating the tank now, have been since sunday.

Bottle said 1 drop per litre on the first day, then X amount on each 3rd day. I assume keep treatment for a week.

Sound correct?