New Tank- Tropical vs Coldwater

[gagaforfish]

I have just started this fish thing and i have a few questions. I have a AR-380 (34l) with a filter, light, pump, heater, ornaments and gravel.

I can decide between a coldwater tank or a tropical tank. What would you guys suggest? The laldy at the pet shop suggested neons for the first cycle, then a couple of those sucker-fish.... I forget the name.

Also any thing to tell/warn me about before i set up the tank.

Thanks!

[John Rimbauer]

It's going to depend on what kind of fish you want to keep mainly. :lol:

One thing I will offer is that neon tetra's aren't the most hardy fish in the world, though they are cheap and colourful. If you're not too worried about cheap fish, I'd say get something more interesting, and just be very very careful to keep up your water changes and tests while the tank cycles. If you can get some filter media from an established tank that will speed up the process.

If by suckerfish you mean bristle nose catfish, I'd hold off for a couple of weeks while the tank cycles. When they are young they are a little bit sensitive to water conditions - I don't think it would be a problem. but it's a worry you can avoid. As they are algae grazers, a brand spanker tank will be lean pickings for them, you'd need to feed them extra, which will add to your cycling problems with water quality. They are also a little territorial when they are grown, you'll need a couple of hiding places so that they can avoid each other, otherwise you may end up with only one. Or just have one to start with.

[gagaforfish]

Cool. What kind of fish would you suggest?

[BikBok]

One thing I will offer is that neon tetra's aren't the most hardy fish in the world, though they are cheap and colourful. If you're not too worried about cheap fish, I'd say get something more interesting, and just be very very careful to keep up your water changes and tests while the tank cycles.

If by suckerfish you mean bristle nose catfish, I'd hold off for a couple of weeks while the tank cycles. When they are young they are a little bit sensitive to water conditions - I don't think it would be a problem. but it's a worry you can avoid. As they are algae grazers, a brand spanker tank will be lean pickings for them, you'd need to feed them extra, which will add to your cycling problems with water quality.

AND the BN's are messey! lot's of poop to deal with in a cycling tank.

I cycled my first AR380 with a couple of guppys, adding a couple more a week later and so on. I got a BN about week 3 and he happily ate pleco tablets. You can an eye on ammonia/nitrite levels with a testing kit. Filter bacteria such as TLC or JBL filter start is great too.

I think Tropicals are more fun then coldwater.. but probably more work. For a heater in the AR380 , I used a 55W.

[gagaforfish]

okay...

[Ice222]

I'm not sure if you've read about 'Cycling', but in case if you haven't, it basically means setting up your filter with the right bacteria to make your water safe. It's VERY important step, whether it is a Coldwater or a Tropical tank.

Fish pee, poo, rotting food and such create ammonia which is bad for fish, so you need some bacteria to turn it into something safe for the fish. Bateria1 turns Ammonia to NitrIte, which is still toxic, and bacteria2 turns NitrIte to NitrAte, which much less toxic. So by adding a small amount of fish to start with, and slowly adding more fish, you give time for the necessary bacteria to develop in your filter and tank. You know you have enough of the right bacteria when you consistently get 0 Ammonia, 0 NitrIte and some amount of NitrAte, so I'd recommend buying a test kit. After first adding fish, it can tank over a month for this Cycling to be complete, so patience is required. I think there's also a detailed link in the beginner's forum here.

I also have the AR380, my first tank. I choose to go Tropical, and I'd recommend the same to you. Coldwater fish generally mean goldfish, which tend to get big, and are very messy fish (ie poo a lot). So you won't be able to keep every many in your tank, I definitely recommend against these. Although if you do decide on a Coldwater tank, maybe consider White Cloud Mountain Minnows, or there are some types of Danios that should be good in room temp, but overall you'd be pretty limited for choice.

As for a Tropical tank the only real difference in cost or maintenance is the cost of a heater + thermometer, but the trade off is that you would have a much wider variety of fish to choose from. It's a bit of a double edged sword, since the variety can make it hard for a beginner to pick the right fish, but if you look up the needs of the specific fishies you want first before buying them, and ask for recommendations from experienced fishkeepers (NOT store people). Then keeping tropical fish should be no harder.

I'm not too sure of the best tropical fish for a beginner, but I think it's be good to start with some cheap and peaceful fish to cycle, pick hardy ones! Zebra danios are great I hear, and you can always sell/give away the cycling fish if you decide that you don't want them in the end, better than picking more sensitive fish, like neons that might die in the process. Once it's cycled, you can take your time choosing what fish you want to keep for the long term; I think the easiest way is to pick 1 fish you want the most, look it up and find out if you think you can deal with it's needs, than work from that one type of fish to find others that would go complement it.

[John Rimbauer]

Cool. What kind of fish would you suggest?

If you go with cold water, with no heating, you're a bit limited. The tank is a little small for most goldfish, so they're out unless you want to rehome as they grow. And in my experience, goldfish are the messiest of fish, excluding the large plecos. Gold fish eat heaps, dig, poo everywhere and dig up plants. They do look pretty though!

Umm, back on topic, leopardfish and white cloud mountain minnows are cold water tolerant, even down to single digits overnight. If the house temp never drops below 18 degrees Celcius you can keep some semi-tropicals, such as guppies, but they won't do well if it's cold, they may die during a cold snap.

If you don't mind throwing a wee heater in, then you got choices galore. It will just be a case of how much the fish grow, or what room they need. You could look at any of the smaller tetra species - glowlight, cardinal, rummynose, black emporer, lemon, etc. If you can manage the flow from the filter so that it's not too brisk, you could have a siamese fighter - not two though, coz they fight. Corydoras species and bristlenose will do OK, and I'd imagine kuhli loaches would too. I'm not too familiar with the danio species, but a lot of them would work. Many of the smaller killifish would probably do well, perhaps some of the killi fanciers will chip in with ideas. Dwarf gourami would probably work too.

It's really going to come down to looking at fish you like, and then doing a bit of research to find out what conditions each fish will require.

[BikBok]

If you can manage the flow from the filter so that it's not too brisk, you could have a siamese fighter - not two though, coz they fight. Corydoras species and bristlenose will do OK, and I'd imagine kuhli loaches would too.

Siamese fighters are great but in my opinion the current in an AR380 is too much for them. You may be able to adapt it somehow though or provide lots of plant cover. I kept a female betta in my AR380 and she was fine because of the shorter fins. a real character and fun to watch. Hmmm maybe a Plakat fighter would work. Kuhli Loaches are perfectly OK too, current doesn't bother them at all in fact I think they like playing in it at night. Just make sure you use the shorter intake strainer not the longer one that rests on the bottom... reason: the kuhli will move along the gravel and swim into the strainer and up into the filter. Mine did this several times before I switched to the shorter pipe.

[spoon]

to adapt the current drill more holes in the top filter all around the base where the other holes are

[Ice222]

If you can manage the flow from the filter so that it's not too brisk, you could have a siamese fighter - not two though, coz they fight. Corydoras species and bristlenose will do OK, and I'd imagine kuhli loaches would too.

Siamese fighters are great but in my opinion the current in an AR380 is too much for them. You may be able to adapt it somehow though or provide lots of plant cover. I kept a female betta in my AR380 and she was fine because of the shorter fins. a real character and fun to watch. Hmmm maybe a Plakat fighter would work. Kuhli Loaches are perfectly OK too, current doesn't bother them at all in fact I think they like playing in it at night. Just make sure you use the shorter intake strainer not the longer one that rests on the bottom... reason: the kuhli will move along the gravel and swim into the strainer and up into the filter. Mine did this several times before I switched to the shorter pipe.

[gagaforfish]

okay, so if i want kuhli loaches i need to make the filter bit that sucks shorter? How would i go about doing that if i were to get some??

[Zev]

There are some pics here of small tanks we had in a comp earlier in the year - you may get some ideas from these as well.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=42952

[gagaforfish]

cool thanks. Those tanks are awesome! I am thinking about some tetras and a siamese fighter fish? Are they okay together? I am going to the pet shop tomorrow, i think to look at the fish there...

[BikBok]

okay, so if i want kuhli loaches i need to make the filter bit that sucks shorter? How would i go about doing that if i were to get some??

there should have been two intake strainers that came with the tank, one is short and the other a bit longer. If not, you can order one in , less than $10.

[gagaforfish]

I dont have one. (brought the tank second hand) Where/Who would i get one from?

[BikBok]

which strainer do you have?

I'm trying to find pics on line but can't.

My aquaone was also second hand and I had to order the shorter one in. It was $7 and the LFS ordered it for me.

Otherwise you can order form aqua one.. but they are currently out of stock.

http://www.aquaone.net.nz/cart_product20551-1-2569.html?Title=AQUA%20ONE%20AR380%20STRAINER%20BLUE

you will only need the shorter one if you plan to keep kuhli! (which are cool fish btw)

[BikBok]

oh here we go.. this pic shows the shorter strainer:

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc65 ... 210132.jpg

and the longer one:

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/files/tankhs.jpg

notice how the longer one has longer slots in it as well and they are more flexible. That combined with sitting on or just above the gravel makes it easy for kuhli to find their way up into the filter!

[gagaforfish]

Yeah. I have the longer one on my tank. Is it worth getting the shorter one?

[BikBok]

Yeah. I have the longer one on my tank. Is it worth getting the shorter one?

it is if you want Kuhli! I have 3 kuhli loaches and they have all been up the long one and into the filter. I found them in the top with various degrees of scratched bodies. One had damaged fins and I thought i was goign to lose him because he sat in the middle of the tank for hours and not moving. But they all recovered! I was checking daily until I got the new strainer.

They have not been up since the shorter one. .

[John Rimbauer]

During my first experience with kuhli's I ended up cutting up an old net and cable-tying it over the strainer, coz they kept getting into the canister filter. It's just lucky for them that they were so entertaining I kept fishing them out!

I'm not familiar with your tank, but you may be able to "modify" it with a hacksaw, to slightly shorten the pipe. That will of course depend on whether you can still clip the parts together after they've been modded. I've done this before to lengthen an filter uptake, for an extra deep tank.

But don't feel pressured to get kuhli loaches just because they were suggested. There are heaps of cool fish to look at keeping, then you'll want a bigger tank, then another tank, and so on from there... MTS at it's finest!

[JazzyJeff]

I agree with BikBok - so much easier just to get the other strainer! They are inexpensive and IMO look nicer. I put the shorted one on mine from the start and my Khuli's haven't been up to the filter ever... Mind you, my partner made them a cute little coconut shell house that they hardly ever venture out of it. Every morning when the light come on there are 3 cute little heads peeking out the little door. I drop their shrimp pellets in they grab them and take them into the depths of their house - funny little guys!

[Ice222]

I think it might work better to put some sponge material in the inside of the strainer rather than just switching to the short one, since that might keep loaches out, but if you plan on getting any small fishies, the short strainer might not be sufficiant for keeping them out.

I used to use the short strainer, but found that my ember tetras could get sucked in. Added filterwool on the inside but found it a bit too dense, as it would inhibit the flow a bit after 2 days, which can't be good for the powerhead. Switched to the long strainer (with wool) and that's working a bit better, but I will switch to using some very coarse sponge as soon as I finish this bag of filter wool since, I think that should allow a lot more waterflow while keeping fish out.

[gagaforfish]

Thanks for all the advice. Short Strainer or long strainer with sponge. Cool.