Opinions on Copadichromis Azureus

[firenzenz]

Have be meaning to post thread for a while and another thread with great pics has prompted me

This is my first male from a couple of years ago

showing both types of patterns. Barring and the three "Utaka" spots.

I has two spawns from him and fry were relatively consistent but will have some with more defined spots than others.

This was one of original females

one of his sons at young age

two sons different patterning

and more recent shots.

I would tend to question how pure these fish are.

While there is always chance of hybridisation at any stage I wonder if these were a combination of something like Fryeri sometime ago, perhaps even in the lake( long shot but these two fish are well known to 'Consort"). like their parents these guys breed fairly consistently.

Looking at the head shape of Mine, then 'Boban_nz' which appear to be the same and more fryeri like in terms of rounded over top lip as opposed to a more even shape top and bottom as per Kadango.

Body shape is more slender than perhaps I would expect, perhaps more fryeri like although definitely get deeper in body as they age and pelvic fins can get lovely and long as per Kadango.

One of my males is developing a beautiful blaze, something Azureus can get but not perhaps this young.

I have been for a while culling off fry that have less defined spots and more barring. Hopefully move toward the sotty ones that seems to get the deeper body and better colouring although less aggressive fry than the ones with less defined spots.

I did bring this up sometime ago but thought I'd raise it again as there seem to be more around and would very interested in others experiences of this fish. I see that these fish are on the list so wonder if there is new stock or they are all part of original stock.

At the end of the day they are a beautiful mild mannered addition to any tank no matter what.

[Navarre]

either way Nice pics

thanks for sharing

One thing I have notice in my cobues is that the patterns can change with age, mood and light. I have sometimes looked in the tank and gone oh crap...then other times looked and gone hmmm...phew.

Do your "boys" have mood swings like this or are the patterns consistant?...and what are the females like?

thanks for the post

Nav

[firenzenz]

I lost one of my old girls just a few weeks ago and she was pretty knackered at he end, the younger ones coming through are of the more spotted ones I been saving.

I 've kept the two boys and they do have mood swings, but still tend to maintain their individual patterning which would tend to indicate crossing somewhere. That only becomes more noticable as they get older.

Perhaps by chance I kept the two that were going to show this out .

The one with more defined Utaka spots is also deeper in body, more placid and is my choice as breeder.

Interesting with the Cobues as juvies.

I have never seen juvie peacocks that have that much of defined lateral markings almost showing through the vertical barring. I looking forward to seeing these guys grow.

[smidey]

man, nice fish & pics. 8)

i have found fryeri juvies to do the same, have different appearances. The dominant male was always darker like yours particularly when starting to breed, he seemed to wash out the blue & show more black barring while trying to entice a female or spawning. Have you ever removed the darker one for what ever reason & seen what the lighter ones does?

[firenzenz]

Yeah certainly the lighter or spotted one will flare up and going into a breeding look if in with females, and away from the orther

I guess what I am alluding to is that these fish can show different patterning whilst both in "normal mode", something that probably has more to do with lineage rather than just environmental.

But that lineage issue would appear to be more than just one individual getting into a hybridisation situation.

I think that they were brought in like that.

I'm sort hoping someone posts some pics of theirs that might support, or question that idea.

[ryanjury]

I have no idea about azureus, I did consider getting some a few years ago but I didn't like the looks of the ones I could find in the petshops, from my limited research they seemed to be too slender and too much like fryeri for my likings..

However it does look like they do like all fish broaden out as they grow up, and it is possible we just have a slightly different strain of them in NZ?

Generally as you have said when growing them up and have found differences in colour and body shape one would tend to think you may have hybrids.. But then it can come down to the individual fish and that fishes dominance etc as well?

I am looking forward to seeing my cobues grow too, especially after getting to see the parents a few weekends back

[firenzenz]

Do your Cobue fry have spot/marks running laterally down mid abdomen as well as vertical barring as per normal in Aulonocara.

Have you seen this trait in peacock juvies before.

As for Azureus. I tend to think we have a fish that has somewhere in the past been infiltrated possibly by fryeri.

I would expect a different strain still to be representative of it genus in terms of fundamental body shape characteristics.

Not sure where Boban_nz got his stock from but they also have the body shape that has a little of both fish.

Look at eye position and convex shape of forehead down mouth of mine and of Boban_nz.

Your a Fryeri man Ryan, does that not look a little fimilar.

Look also at body shape of his females and mine -the same

Here are images of Azureus from several lake location sourced off the net.

I''m looking particularly at concave head shape into mouth, the shape of body from lower jaw running to abdomen and shape and eye position.

[ryanjury]

Yeah I can definitely see Fryeri in their shape that white blaze does look very fryeri too.. I guess comparing them to something like a Borleyi that is in the same family and a similar shape and starts that shape from very young only to broaden slightly as they get very old..

I am wondering where these fish came from? If they were imported as Azureus or as something else and the imported decided that was what they were? Or if they showed up at the importers/wholesaler from a breeder?

Like I say I haven't kept these fish or done an awful lot of research so don't want to ruffle any feathers it is JMO

[firenzenz]

Like I say I haven't kept these fish or done an awful lot of research so don't want to ruffle any feathers it is JMO

Very diplomatic of you mate, but If well constructed opinions based on facts leads to a pile of feather on the floor then that is the way it goes.

I'm interested in your thoughts particularly in term of the fryeri body shape aspect, and Utaka spot subject.

They are breeding relatively consistently but showing characteristics of another genus.

Like the Azureus could this be more a case of stock that was tainted some time ago rather than recent hybrid activity.

Lets face it we know the general quality of stock here even when they are touted as something specific.

I got mine 2 yrs or so ago and have yet to see one that doesn't resemble my shape.

Even my original male and females were of this body shape so I can discount a mistake in my breeding program

I understand that some might want to find that their fish is not pure, or not want. I have had them for two tears and bred multiple spawns so would have every reason to say nothing. But if by chance another lot of them came in it would be essential to keep the two as far apart as possible?

They are still lovely fish.

[ryanjury]

I have found that one needs to be diplomatic when discussing these things, some people seem to think that these discussions are personal attacks and no matter how constructive and how many points you bring up it seems to end badly with people throwing the toys.

The Azureus you have are nice fish and they are different to Fryeri and are throwing relatively true, as you have pointed out if they are a hybrid they are a very well established one that has been "line bred" over many generations to give the fish you have today. End of the day it is very hard to know with any of our fish as we tend to get alot of rubbish in NZ, I have the attitude with all my africans that if I get them from one place those fish stay together and I introduce no new blood from different imports of people as we just don't know what we really have or what may be showing up. I believe the same should be observed for plecos and even killies as both of them have different variants of the same fish collected from different places.

Cobue loose the spots and (if they only way to describe it) fryeri type shape after around 3/4 of mine already have but a few smaller ones still have them slightly showing through. Like you I haven't seen this before but again it is very hard to know what to expect or what it may mean? And even harder to find reputable photos of juvvies to compare to. I look forward to seeing how these grow out and I have 20 so should be able to do a good comparison between them all.

Utaka spots on Fryeri, I know that most the fryeri in NZ have them but I don't like the looks of them. Yes the fish that have them are still stunning and breeding true but when I had the option of getting some without I took it

[smidey]

for all we know these & fryeri could be a hybridisation from the lake. maybe a fryeri & dolphin mixed 100's of years ago & thats what these are or one of these mixed with a peacock to create fryeri which gives the similarities in appearance. i guess we can only base our thoughts on info post scientific names.

when i compare your pics to the net sourced ones i think that if yours put on weight they would look alot more like them with regard to shape, they would bulge a little more just behind the jaw & then it may only be a discussion of colouring & the "malawimayhem" pic certainly has the spots.

[Navarre]

I have to agree with a lot of the sentiment in this thread.

thank you for posting

the cobue change from day to day

F1 male ( for want of a better term) is completely different today than he was when I brought him 12 mths ago.

body shape and markings have evolved over last wee while to pics and fish you have both seen.

I guess at the end of the day I brought these fish in as described so can only go on that.

If they are not i am happy to admit that it will cost me nothing...well...a few fish is not that much in the scheame of things eh....and I still think they are nice. These guys at 5 cm are different than at 7.5 and 10 cm

Give them time...lol

besides the only people that have them are like minded so will wait and see.

there are only 3 generations in NZ and I have 2 of them in my room both true thus far...

One day at a time.

Sorry to hijack thread

[firenzenz]

Yeah I think we are all talking the same language here Nav.

I'm really looking forward to the cobues growing out from the adult shots you've shown.

This thread could easily have a subtitle

'Is the quality of imported African cichlids keeping pace with the increasing interest, knowledge, and expectation of those keeping them?'

A totally different issue from what people do with them after they've got them.

[livingart]

well done an intelligent and gentlemanly discussion

as stated these fish show variation within localities

http://www.fishbase.gr/Summary/SpeciesS ... hp?id=8164

Dorsal spines (total): 15 - 18; Dorsal soft rays (total): 10 - 12; Anal spines: 3; Anal soft rays: 8 - 9. Diagnosis: 3 lateral spots on the body; supra-pectoral spot about 1.5 times the supra-anal spot; supra-pectoral spot separate from upper lateral line; supra-anal spot smaller than 2 scales; males in breeding coloration with blue breast, narrow yellow marginal band in anal fin and without spots or streaks in the anal fin (Ref. 57549). Description: dorsal snout profile straight; gape inclination of mouth about 40° to horizontal; jaws isognathous; teeth on dentary and premaxilla in 3-4 rows, outer row teeth unicuspid and somewhat enlarged in mature males (> 80 mm SL) and bicuspid in females and immature males; lower pharyngeal jaw small, dentigerous area notched posteriorly, with bicuspid teeth, all small or with few median teeth slightly enlarged; gill-rakers on ceratobranchial short and slender; 3-4 teeth rows in upper and lower jaw; 2-3 scale rows on cheek; 1-2 pored scales posterior to lateral line (Ref. 57549). Coloration: breeding males: head blue with green highlights; interorbital blue with light-blue highlights; blue opercle; throat gray with blue highlights; lateral portion of body dark blue ground color dorsally, fading to blue/gray ventrally, with 8 dark gray bars; breast and belly greenish blue with dark-gray markings; dorsal fin dark blue with green and light-blue highlights and a white marginal band with yellow/white lappets; caudal fin with blue rays and blue/green membranes, distal 1/4 dark gray; anal fin blue to green/blue with very narrow marginal orange/yellow band; pectoral fin with gray rays and clear membranes; pelvic fin with blue/green rays and blue/gray membranes (Ref. 57549). Females: head gray dorsally, fading to white ventrally; blue and silver highlights on cheek; throat white; lateral portion of body gray/blue ground color with anterior portion of scale outlined in orange/yellow; 3 distinct black spots on lateral portion of body; supra-pectoral spot below 10-12th scale not in contact with upper lateral line and about 1.5 times size of supra-anal spot; supra-anal spot at 23-25th scale above and in contact with lower lateral line and covering less than 2 scales; caudal spot same diameter as supra-anal spot on caudal base; 8 gray bars and white belly with gray highlights; 3 vertical bars between supra-pectoral spot and dorsal fin origin; dorsal fin clear with pale orange/gray vermiculations in rayed portion and orange lappets; caudal fin with clear rays and orange/gray membranes; anal fin clear with scattered micromelanophores, 6-8 pale orange ocelli and orange lappets between rays; pectoral fin clear; pelvic fin clear with light-gray membrane between first and second ray (Ref. 57549).

[Navarre]

Er thanks LA

So um is what your saying is that they may be different form here to there?

Depending on where they where caught?

Ok phew well all the cobues were caught in Tuahiwi bro....lol

Sorry sick sense of humor

yes there are variations and same with many fish

look at Calvus/Comps in the Alto family....takes more than the practiced eye to tell some apart

( That is a hint to those that have them that I wouldnt mind a few tanks of them so I can get my eye in...lol)

even "common" fish like some of the killies or kribs...you need to know what your about to tell some of the differences

hence why we need to make sure we make sure I guess.

Still I have enjoyed this thread

Well done may there be more like it.

[firenzenz]

Hell Nav,

Well done

I started reading Marks post 9am and still only at "within localities" .

[Navarre]

LOL

just a pity my speeling makes me a moron...oh well onwards and upwards.

If it makes you feel any better this Moron has a small 3 odd mil budget 40 staff and is responible on any given day for between 20 and 200 ill adults good thing eh

moving on moving on nothing to see here

From that descriptor one has to think that the fish with the barring rather than the spots is a truer phenotype?

Is that how you read things?

Ill wait for you to finish reading tho...do you mind if I go get groceries whilst that happens...lmao

where is the emote for puts tounge in cheek? Whilst Firenzenz slaps me about a bit?

[Navarre]

enjoying a nice 99 Charles Wiffen riesling at this time

very nice sitting on deck with said in hand whilst nibbling a jolly nice stilton.

hope all and sundry are doing same.

Swallows flitting turts a sunning and me a sipping

just a shade under 30 degs on deck tho so about to follow shade

[livingart]

enjoying the last of a 6 pack of 2009 8% wooodys and nibbling on a peanut butter and jam sandwich

sunning flits and turts a nipping, slurping and burping is me

can i join the moron club

my I.Q (idiot quota) is 0.61 and ascending or descending depending on which way up you hold the chart

i am not saying anything nav

will let the post speak for itself

can give you my interpretation of it

but why spoil the first bit of peace i have had for awhile

[Navarre]

Nuff said then

LMAO

[firenzenz]

Driving to tutakaka. Boys got 7 stripeys today. Hope like that tomorrow

[livingart]

have you got the tank ready to put one in?

good luck with the day

[Navarre]

Any diving being done

must get up that way one day to dive those spots

1000 dives -never north of Wellington

Go figure

[boban_nz]

I don't understand why you have such a strong connection between this fish and C. frayeri. If you believe that there is any hybridizations occured in the past why it hasn't happened within Copadichromis genus or maybe Otopharynx?

When I saw this fish a few years back now, I did some study to verify that it is C. azureus. Unfortunatly as you know there is no known true locations of this fish which is the case for all aquarium breed or most commercial fish. Regardless of that I have moved ahead. I fixed a few fish and did a study.

All results of meristic and morphometric date and observations lead me to C. azureus.

C. azureus belongs to mbenjii group. This group has a small number of gill rackers on the first ceratobranchial, 12-20. As I can recall now I found 17 or so. Body depth may vary from 33 to almost 39 % TL. There is also big oscilations in eye diametar (31.6 to 39.8 % TL) and preorbital dept. Those facts are very confusing for many people because fish may look very slender especially at the early age.

You have a few pictures and it is what we would like to see regarding Copadichromi sp., their colourations of teritorial male, non teritorial male, female and juviniles.

This discussion may go on and on dependent what data you have. Internet source is great but could be very tricky and we have a good example in this topic, picture of azureus (Schumacher). If we know that C. azureus has narrow yellow to orange margin in the blue to green anal fin and in fact that margin DISTIGUISHED C. azureus from other Copadichromis of mbenjii group, according to C. azureus description, how that fish can be C. azureus?

Well, that is the internet, everything is possible

I hope there was not any photoshop job done on that picture.

It is up to you. I have done my bit of work and this fish cleary fits in C. azureus descriptions.

Please note that I talk about original stock. Many of you breed Copadichromis and some hybridizations may happen, who knows. Also different suppliers may give a wrong name to some Copadihromis. It is such a small difference and it is so easy to mix different species.

Observe your fish, study a bit, follow fish descriptions and key to species and you would be fine.

[smidey]

I don't understand why you have such a strong connection between this fish and C. frayeri.

myself & ryan are refuring to S. Fryeri. The connections would be everything except exact shape, colouring, barring & the blaze etc.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... hp?id=1328