kiwibrick Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 The male from my breeding pair has decided to stop eating suddenly one day and is also gasping (excess gill cover movement and open mouth), he looks in good condition externally apart from the gasping, doesn't go to the surface to gulp air, and his behaviour hasn't changed apart from not eating. I have him isolated in a hospital tank, I have tried using some worming solution that I got from HFF a while back but no improvement, I am currently doing a potassium permanganate treatment on him to make sure it isn't gill fluke (which I have had in the tank before on my clown loaches). He hasn't eaten for just over a week now and I am running out of ideas! Any help would be much appreciated. /edit tank water parameters are all within normal ranges, I test regularly, and since his partner (or other fish in the tank) isn't exhibiting the same symptoms I had ruled out the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 he is prob hyperventilating. stress of 100+ kids & a nagging wife is he in different water to what he was before? (I would have in totally different water, as long as the pH was the same - and then see if he is the same). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 I would say it is not water conditions Is there any small white lumps on the fishes head? Almost sounds like gill flukes to me too but it is really hard to tell what was the wormer you used? I would be tempted to try some epsoms salts and metro just in case there is something internally wrong that is causing him not to eat.. PP is pretty nasty stuff usually last resort. http://www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/pp.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwibrick Posted January 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 he is prob hyperventilating. stress of 100+ kids & a nagging wife is he in different water to what he was before? (I would have in totally different water, as long as the pH was the same - and then see if he is the same). They aren't currently in a breeding cycle so I don't think it is stress, I used over 50% water for the hospital tank from the main tank when I moved him, so the water conditions are pretty much the same. I would say it is not water conditions Is there any small white lumps on the fishes head? Almost sounds like gill flukes to me too but it is really hard to tell what was the wormer you used? I would be tempted to try some epsoms salts and metro just in case there is something internally wrong that is causing him not to eat.. PP is pretty nasty stuff usually last resort. http://www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/pp.shtml No white lumps or any external signs apart from the gasping. The wormer doesn't have a label but I remember they said it was the same as the cat/dog wormer but in liquid form. Where do I get metro from? I have used PP successfully before on my clown loaches to treat gill fluke, I use a bath of it for 10-15mins then return to the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Sounds like it could be gill disease and if you don't see any external signs of flukes, it may be bacterial in origin. I would treat with metronidazole ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadeusus Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Why would u want to go straight to metronidazole? even if it is bacterial gill disease? Metronidazole is designed for use against obligate anaerobic bacteria (those that can't use oxygen) so unlikely obligate anaerobes would be on the gills really. One could try a salt bath, or something like chloramine-T or benzalkonium chloride bath and make sure oxygen levels are good in the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Quarternary ammonium compounds are highly toxic to fish aren't the? I have a friend who is a pharmacist and treated fish with Savlon and they went over pretty quick (contains hibitane as well though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwibrick Posted January 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 So I will try salt since I have some, what concentration? in a separate bath or in the hospital tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 I am pretty sure that the fish has already been treated with praziquental and PP which should have wiped out any gill flukes if there were any. Same with a salt bath it wont really achieve anything as you have already used 2 treatments for parasites. That is why I suggested treating with metro as I have seen fish go off their food and then start gasping, I would suggest that maybe the gasping is a secondary thing caused by something going wrong internally hence the treatment with metro.. End of the day it is just a guess, IME if the fish is off its food and gasping then it is probably already too late to turn things around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadeusus Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Quarternary ammonium compounds are highly toxic to fish aren't the? I have a friend who is a pharmacist and treated fish with Savlon and they went over pretty quick (contains hibitane as well though) Chloramine-T is a marketed fish treatment used in aquaculture, benzalkonium chloride also - I've used both without killing fish. Certainly wouldn;t use savlon though!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadeusus Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 I am pretty sure that the fish has already been treated with praziquental and PP which should have wiped out any gill flukes if there were any. Same with a salt bath it wont really achieve anything as you have already used 2 treatments for parasites. That is why I suggested treating with metro as I have seen fish go off their food and then start gasping, I would suggest that maybe the gasping is a secondary thing caused by something going wrong internally hence the treatment with metro.. End of the day it is just a guess, IME if the fish is off its food and gasping then it is probably already too late to turn things around. I was querying the metro with respect to the suggestion of bacterial gill disease, not your earlier suggestion for internal problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Savlon contains benzalkonium chloride (which is a quarternary ammonium compound). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 In the aquatics ward (and in the absence of cytology or histology) we always used metro as first port of call to eliminate any primary or secondary protozoal influence as that will usually kill a fish faster than bacterial or fungal insults. After that, gill diseases that were suspected to be bacterial in origin were treated with erythromycin or smz-tmp unless culture and sensitivity indicated otherwise. Sorry, I should have clearly outlined my reasoning and diagnostic pathway so as not to cause any confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwibrick Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 So I guess I should try some metro, but where do I get it from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I think it is prescription only and you would have to get it from a vet or doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redracer77 Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I got metro from the local vet, had to explain what I was for and how much I wanted(got a couple of weird looks too), then crushed it up and put it in the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Yeah most vets will prescribe it if you describe what you want it for and actually know what dosage how many pills etc you want.. So you have to sound like you know what you are doing with it otherwise they wont have a bar of it. Sometimes doctors/Nurses maybe able to help source it too as it is used to treat humans.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Metro is not easily absorbed through the gills. Try the search function on this forum for a recent discussion about dosages and administration tips. I'd provide you with the link but I am out and about and my iPhone isn't very cooperative in that regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwibrick Posted January 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Ok I will try the metro, I know someone who is a vet nurse so she should be able to help me get it, thanks for the help everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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