Ira Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 no one wants to see shops close..... and no one wants to pay retail..... yeah right. I'd be happy to pay retail for a lot of things, IF I had that option and a good selection becauses of the convenience. At least for the lower price things. Like if I want to go and buy a phosphate test kit for example, I'd rather just pay even an extra $10 at the LFS. Or something like an actinic PC bulb that I need, of if I'm there anyway and I see a coral or fish I like, I'd much rather buy it there than try to get it somewhere else. Unfortunately, for the most part I don't have that option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 It is rare that this occurs in a market. The fact is the the market for fish and corals is not big at all. An extra importer is not going to lower costs in the long run. Also, there are no options overseas for purchasing livestock, unless you have permit and quarantine facility. How Nick and Steve plan to sell their livestock (yet unknown) will determine whether or not LFS will continue to stock marine fish and inverts in the long run. If they sell direct, then I think that prices in LFS will rise due to lower volumes, and stock turnover will drop. If they sell to the shops, then prices will remain close to where they are now, defeating the whole purpose of the venture. Either way, I don't see how the hobby will benefit. I can see how individuals will, but does nothing to advance the hobby in NZ, and could be to it's detriment. I also agree with what Ira said above. Shops are important... all of them. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Pegasus Wrote: Which is one of the reasons that action was taken by the Admin against the other thread. Your comments about this company are really unjustified. Its an opnion, if you disagree tell him, I don't see anything unaceptable about his coment. Unjustified or unpopular? If unjustified comments require moderation, you sure have your work cut out, there are more than enough on here (this board, the internet in general). Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicks Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 this is by far the most constructive post I have seen on here for a while For a update I have formed a company called Pacificaquaria Ltd and I will be bringing in corals and fish in the near future. As a marine hobbiest since 1989 this is a natural progresion for my hobby, my quarantine room and propogation room are a thing that I have wanted for many many years and I will be here for many years to come. This is not a short term project but a extension to my life long interest with aquariums that started when I was 12yrs old. My Father started me on tropicals after he was fed-up with me bringing home goldfish from the local fairs in Liverpool he was even more annoyed when the goldfish kept coming and my Oscars got fat Anyway I have a business plan and a marketing plan in place for my company and I believe that I have done my home work on my products, target market and my distribution methods. I never intended to change the world over night and shake the very foundations of Rome.I am just a keen hobbiest wanting to take that next step, as alot of hobbiest have done before me. I cannot guarentee the lowest in NZ as they are quite low now, But it is a bit of competition and I will always have the hobbiest interest in mind wherther this is my imports or my NZ propogated stock. Happy reef keeping and keep chopping up you Acro's. Nicks ps Has anyone tried blending Mushrooms!!!! Just chop lighly into 1-2mm pieces let the poor things rest on rock, low current and moderate light and watch them grow. Best done when the wife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Layton - Do you really believe what your saying? I mean really? Do you think that having fewer importers than we have now would really bring the prices down? Really? Is there any one person here (other than layton) who thinks this is true? As for 'The Hobby'. Its going to be bad for 'The Hobby', 'Good for the hobby' or whatever. We are the hobby. I promise that as prices drop, interest will increase, 'the hobby' benifits. If people go out of business (not that anyone other than layton thinks this will happen), then they need to be smarter about the way they do business, if they really were 'helping the hobby' then they would have a loyal following and have no problems. Layton - You say you brought stuff directly from Alois (an importer). If you believe what you say, then why didn't you buy the stuff from Jansens or Hollywoods? They do mail order? Isn't buying from Alois a direct contridiction to what you have been saying? Why is it OK for you to buy from Alois directly, but for Nick/Steve to do the same so bad? Why shouldn't everyone here buy direct from Alois and cut out the shop as you have done? I would completely support this, but you don't, even though you do. To protect 'the hobby', I will make a deal with all of you. If 'the hobby' suffers so badly that no-one can get the stuff they want because of the cheap prices and higher availablilty I will personally start up my own facility here in Wellington, and EVERYONE, shop, off the street, wholesaler, importer, EVERYONE is welcome to buy stuff from me. And if I happen to make a few bucks from it I am sure I will enjoy all of your full support Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Dammit pieman yr always so SENSIBLE And anyway just the mildest rumour of another importer has already brought the prices down But i am wondering how they (the importer) can justify putting them up again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Yes I do believe it. If you can cut half the overheads off bringing fish in, it could potentially cut the retail prices in half. This would mean at retail we would be paying a lot less than the states. There is a limit to this however, freight is still a major component. There is no doubt that if prices drop, interest will increase. But how are prices going to drop? Not by importer competition. I cannot guarentee the lowest in NZ as they are quite low now Steve doesn't think so. We may be the hobby presently. But we are not the future of the hobby in terms of purchasing stock. There is only so much you can fit into a tank. The hobby need new people. Shops won't go out of business, they will get out of the business, there is more money to be made from things other than marine fish and corals. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 It was Nick that said that not Steve. Now see, we are so 'close'. I too would rather buy directly from the importer, for the saving in money and for the fact that there is 'less doubble handeling' and less' skungy shop tank action going on. Less stress for the fish/coral the better. Alois disagreed with me last time I said this (I think in one of the banned/missing threads! shame I can't reference it...) but I think its true. And here is the thing, I don't have a problem with that, infact if anyone should make money it should be Alois. And I support him and his business 100% (i have no options as there are no retailers here in Wellington). Its that next step that annoys me. The $50 sold from the importer to the $120 sold in the shop. This bit is the bit that frustrates me, where is the value proposition in this? Overs heads and blah blah aside, the importer does a lot more 'work', makes (guess here I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) 100% margin (seems fair) but this 100% is worth 1/4 (is my math right?) of the 100% (120%+ for many stores) of what the shop makes. Now I have no problem with shops doing what they do best, but in all honestly many of us have got appauling advice from shops, often the advice is for one reason. MONEY. I get great advice from Alois, I don't get (always/often/ever) get good advice from the shops. E.g. There is one guy here selling marine fish/coral. I have not met him, not have I been to his shop. I did however meet someone recently who started and delt with this guy. He was sold a berlin skimmer (small, about the size of a can of hair spray) for a 550 litre tank. A doubble strip 03 blue light tube. 2 pieces of live rock, both about the size of 2 fists and an under gravel filter, a bag of salt (tap water is fine but I can sell you a filter later on when you need it. A U.V filter. Within 2 weeks of the tank being setup he was sold a bubble coral (dead now), a cleaner wrasse (dead now), a Bi-Bolour angel (dead now), a H.Magnificia Anemone (dead now), a mandarin fish (dead now) and a rock with Zoeanthids on it (still going strong!). Now although this may be an extreme example I am sure its not all that un-usual. Show me the benifit of a shop and maybee i'd ease of a little. As far as I am concerned, if you want to talk about 'the hobby', lets support people who are going to support 'the hobby'. Alois is here, Steve is here, hell I am here and I have nothing for sale. Where are the stores? Where is the value? I need nothing from the hobby, as I have stated, if it becomes too difficult I will just import my own stuff, I know 4 people who do, doesn't seem to be to much of a chore. Selling equipment/stock for large markups is not 'supporting the hobby', its feeding off it, feeding of those who don't know better and are eager for advice. This part of the hobby is what makes a sinic (sp?) out of me. So support those who support the hobby and hold back on those who don't. To me thats the essence of this whole debate. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Interesting reading<> all the best Nicks<> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 I know it was Nick that said that, but Steve seems to think prices are far too high. Well I am back from my visit to the UK and I could not believe the price of Corals, Fish and equipment compared to NZ. NZ is so expensive it is criminal.I am really disallusioned with pricing here. Yellow tangs..NZ$56 Royal Gramma..NZ$42 Clowns..NZ$36 Blue tangs..NZ$42 Basically 1/3 the retail price Corals Acropora(and most SPS)..very colourful large size NZ$120..Med NZ$70..Hollywood size NZ$50 Large Clams NZ $50 Softies NZ$42. The quality and colour of the corals we just donot see in our shops in NZ With regards to Equipment if it is displayed on a web page it will be at RRP which is set by the manufacturer and the retailer is not allowed to state any other price. That is why all the prices for equipment in the UK seems expensive, but the reality is very different when you talk to the shops. there is a skimmer in Hollywood at present for $900+ a nice little hang on model. I could buy them in the UK for NZ$376. The list goes on and one, I am just glad my tank is full and growing like mad so I can help the hobby out in NZ with realistically priced stock/frags Nicks Have things changed since then Nick? What are you're real motives for importing. I suspect not to lower prices at all. But for the reasons you stated above, it would be an interesting and challenging extension of the hobby. I can understand that I myself would be interested, but really only to supply a personal tank. No doubt it would be far more expensive, but still a very different aspect. But it would be very small, and strictly personal, not compete with existing importers or to make money. I believe the market is too small to have fragmented imports. If the market was bigger the there would be no problem. I think some people envisage it being much bigger than it actually is. Mark, I think you are in a very different position from most of us. You have no LFS, and therefore have a very different perspective on things. I also agree with what you have said with regards to the fact that there are more issues here than just the price of fish... there is in general a complete lack of information about the hobby as it is today. But that's an entirely different thread. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minchton Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 My tuppence worth on one of the comments. Quote "without lfs having marines on display how would we introduce new people to the hobby" In my case, as a club member I was the only person to have started tropical cichlids. Now I am not alone.Others have seen my fish and started their own collections. The same with marines. I am only a newbie with a moderate tank but it has already aroused sufficient interest to have another member talking of starting his own tank. This is not saying there is no place for the LFS but that it is not necessarily the be all and end all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holiday Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 As a beginer in this hobby I don't have to much insight on what you guy's are debating. But as far as I can tell there is a great deal of demand and a great need for more suppliers in the market place. There are 4 importers here in Christchurch and they can't keep up with demands. There is tremendous growth in the hobby here and any shipments that come in are already sold in advance and the excess is cleaned up in 2 - 3 days. for example Pet world here in Christchurch brought in a large shipment of more than 100 varities of fish and invertabraes just over a week ago and when I went in to have a look a few days ago there was nothing to see they were cleaned out and this the same with any shipment that comes into Christchurch. If I want to buy anything i have to go on a waiting list. This is the reason why the lfs can slap any price they like on things because people will pay with out question because how else are they going to get what they want. most of them have no idea what things are really worth. And untill there is more supply to meet demand the prices will never be driven down. One example that makes me laugh is, I have seen red sea prism pro delux skimmers for sale in America for around $85 american and I have seen three for sale here for $895 This is ludacris. High quality equipment isn't seen in shops here because with a mark up like that who is going to pay a couple of grand for a skimmer thats worth $400 or $500 dollars in America. If it wasn't for people like Alois, we wouldn't have top of the line deltecs on our tanks. Thats enough rambling from me!! People like Steve and nick aren't even going to make the smallest change in our market because it is impossible for them to keep up with the huge demand. Good on you guy's I hope there are many more to do the same and bring some sanity to our insane market place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 But what you don't see is how much of that stock is still in holding tanks at their quarantine, how many dead fish their are in their tanks, and how many of their fish die after being purchased. The market is not huge. Redwoods send a lot of stuff up north, and compared to others do not bring in a lot of stuff. I only know of 3 importers down here. Who is the fourth? LFS just don't slap on any price they want. Bob's pricing is fair, Petworld's is higher, I suspect because their losses are higher. I agree that a lot of shops need to raise their standards. There is nowhere in Christchurch at the moment where you can buy a good skimmer, for any price. Why? Because the market is too small. The growth in the hobby is not tremendous, it is growing, but not at a tremendous rate. If the market was 2 to 3 times bigger, it would not be so much of an issue. What's the best way to grow the market quickly? Have lfs promote it. Word of mouth is good, but is limited to people you know. A retail shop is ideal for introducing people who would otherwise not know about the hobby. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 There are also other issues with supply, for example Redwoods have been waiting months for CITIES stuff to come through for a coral shipment, they have no control over that. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 wow, it's gone 3 pages without any personal insults :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 new record i guess practise makes perfect. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Christchurch has 3 (maybee 4 importers) and Aukland has 2 (3 with nick and steve, 4 if you counted brooklands). Auckland has more people in it than all the south island. I don't see how another importer can hurt. This is what this debate was/is about. Nick/Steve are going to ruin 'the hobby' and push up long term prices by starting their own quarantine and distroy the LFS and other businesses. Does this mean some of you have changed your mind? I hope so because the very concept is silly. No-one is knocking the fact that importing is hard work frought with problems. In Christchurch you have 2 (that I know of) importers who also retail there stuff. and it works out cheaper for you (the consumer). In Auckland, much larger volume, they don't do this, hence that extra 100/120% I keep talking about. I suspect if Aquanet (alois business) was suppying direct to the market, this whole debate would be moot. I could by-pass the LFS, who I feel given my own dealings are nothing bud shoddy rip off merchants, yet those who still wanted to use the stores could, and they would corner the 'walkon traffic' and continue to do so. There is room in the market for a supplier to supply direct to the market place, using the net/trademe, mailorder or whatever. I get to save a lot of money because the stores can't rip me off, so I am happy,the importer (who takes the risks) gets paid. Its all good. Layton - your comment earlier about there being no LFS in Wellington is a fair one, and perhapps it does alter my point of view, as its very frustrating for us down here. Stores will order marine, and they have offered to do us 80% markup on wholesale (+gst), good eh? In Christchurch your lucky, you prices are way low anyway. When I started I looked at yellow tangs, Pet World/Redwoods $130, Jansens $199, Hollywood $179.00. Given this matrix it looks as though the shops in christchurch (who retail and import) are making a larger market as a percentage but less money then in Auckland. Why no store in Auckland has started is own quarantine is beyond me, if there is a market for it in Christchurch there MUST be a market in a place with 5x the population? I think in the end its easier and cheaper not too, and people will pay those prices, or have nothing. As for equipment, Auckland seem to have a reasonable selection of gear in there stores. Of course the prices are insane. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 real debate! now this is getting us somewhere. America has lots of mail order internet suppliers as I understand, LFS's are doing well, especially specialist stores that are truely run with passion! Just for the record, while the LFS charges 100%+ margin, after expenses there profits have got to be lower.... With all this talk of demand I might just waterproof the back of my garage :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 ...and that is just my original point! LFS need to start marketing some other way to reduce their overheads and increase profit. The USA are doing it successfully online and their prices are good. If someone in an existing LFS got off their chuff and did it, IMO they would do well (Jansens for example, still sell ALL range of pets, not just aquarium products so they can still afford to maintain a "public presence" and while Hollywood are fish only, they still dabble in the freshwater scene where I suspect the vast majority of their profits come from) Anyways, what I suggest above is not even what the debate is about, its about as Pies says, that Nick/Steve importing will kill the market. I really cant see this happening. If their business fails, what have you and I got to lose? Nothing, its not our risk, its theirs. If they succeed, we at least have another avenue to purchase goods at lower prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Initially I thought this debate was about lowering livestock prices. That's the bottom line. Was I wrong? It seems Nick isn't so sure he can do this, Steve on the other hand seems adamant that he can. Steve and Nick won't put people out of business completely, but depending on how the plan to sell their stock, they may well be responsible for some marine sections in shops closing. This is not good for the hobby. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 as reef said after a while these threads seem like groundhog day in that movie.... :lol: Changing business models was a given the day the internet was born. Its just that LFS in NZ have had a sheltered life for some time. Yes online retailers will hurt some LFS, get on, growup and change.... or shut marine section....... the same fish can only be sold one way at a time, closures of LFS marine sections will only be caused by the SUCCESS of online discount (and they will have to be discount otherwise just buy at the LFS) tough world capitalism, but better then central government issuing license to run protected LFS. We all know what thats called! (As National once said hehehheeh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 cant type for crap but.....layton if Alois didnt sell to you direct would you buy from us? Bet you would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 i highly doubt it will cause marine shops to close layton, if they only specialise in marine, they would have closed years ago. there's plenty more people in freshwater than marine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 cant type for crap but.....layton if Alois didnt sell to you direct would you buy from us? Bet you would. I don't know how you plan to sell your stuff. Are you going to sell direct only? Or do you plan to sell to shops? Or a mixture of both? Just like now. If I can't get the stuff I want from shops, for whatever reason, I will buy from elsewhere, but shops would be my preference. Chimera, it will cause no marine shops to close, because to my knowledge there are no exclusively marine shops in NZ, like you said, they would have closed quickly. Why is this? Simple, the market is too small to sustain it. But this may cause some shops to close their marine section altogether, reducing the public profile of the hobby. Like I have said in previous post in this thread. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 cant answer that as its a SECRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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