Sophia Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 the original worm looked like it was partly in a bubble but when I took it apart it wasn't, so had either emerged during the night or was a protruding scale only. Mine was thinner and straighter than yours also, which is why I thought it was a leech. So today, a week later, I see this other thing on the side of the gill flap of another tetra and so have dosed the tank with formalin - this is the Wunder 5% stuff that supposedly needs 3 drops per litre or 3ml per 20 litres, so I erred on the side of caution and added approx 6-7ml for a 50+ litre tank - it's a 60x30x33 but the substrate is over an inch thick in places. Anyway no-one has complained, but the 'thing' on the gill is still there, though it's only been an hour or so. If it hasn't gone by Tuesday (it says to do again if no improvement in 3 days) I will dose again a bit stronger and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 This appears like it is cutaneous and occular larval migrans. It can progress to visceral larval migrans. It is caused by a simple intestinal parasitic nematode that migrates out of the intestinal tract at some stage during its life cycle. In many mammals, including humans, larval migrans is often self resolving with little or no permanent damage. The animal can be treated with a dewormer such as fenbendazole. There is some concern that if the worm dies when it is trapped in the skin or eye that it can cause systemic toxicity so there may be some benefit to waiting until the worms have migrated back to the intestines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 what does that mean in english?? and are you referring to my post or the original ones? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdarnixx Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 i had someting similar comming out of the gill of one of my bettas,i isolated her and used aquarium salt then formalin....nothing worked and her head puffed up but she was still happy and eating then overnight it dissapeared!!!!! 2 months down the track she is happy and healthy!! im wondering if because it was so close to the head,she rubbed it off? it had the bubble and everything and the whole lot dissapeared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 what does that mean in english?? and are you referring to my post or the original ones? thanks I was referring to the first post. Larval migrans just means that the larvae of the worm migrate throughout the body at some stage of the lifecycle. However, it sounds like your fish may have an external parasite (although this is just a guess based on your descriptions). If you assume that you definately have parasites than it would be good to treat with a proper dewormer such as praziquantel. Over the counter praziquantel is sold at vet clinics under the trade name of Droncit. There is a similarly named chemical called Drontal and while it contains praziquantel it also contains pyrantel which is very toxic to fish so do not use this drug. The dosage for fish is 2mg/litre of water (dissolve the medication in a small volume of water first and then add it to the tank). Make sure that there is no carbon in your filter during the treatment period and turn off the lights if you can since UV light will degrade the medication. In 24 hours, all fish will be treated. It is a good idea to do a large water change after that point and add carbon to remove the excess medication - this will help prevent parasite resistance to the medication. Retreat in 2 weeks time following the same procedure. It might be beneficial to add some salt after the treatment to help with wound healing (up to 1 gram per litre depending on fish tolerance). Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 thank you, this is the best definitive advice I've had so far. Today the fish is possibly more at ease than yesterday but the 'thing' is there, has not developed or changed and is very difficult to see whether it is something attached to the gill flap, protruding or something else. Noone has had a bad reaction to the formalin either, so I'm happy to observe and look into the medication you mention. I take it that I have to buy from the vet, can't get from the fish shop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 To my knowledge you can only buy praziquantel it at a vet clinic since it is a "Prescription Animal Remedy" but it is an over the counter drug so you don't need a prescription or veterinary consult to get it. You may have to try a couple of different clinics though since most clinics only carry Drontal, not Droncit. Again, don't accept Drontal, even if they recommend it - it will kill the fish. They can order in the Droncit for you if necessary. Also, make sure that you remove all the formalin before adding any other drugs since it can react causing toxic compounds - large water changes for a few days will be good as would adding carbon but be sure to remove any carbon before adding the dewormer. If the worm is attached to the fish, it will most likely be causing a wound that will need clean water to heal. If there is a delay in deworming it might pay to put the fish in a short salt bath to see if you can get the worm to fall off. The sooner you can do this the better as some burrowing species of worm can lay eggs in the fish's skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 managed to get some pics after lights out see what you think! it's just the little white edge or sticky out bit at the bottom edge of the gill and this was last week's critter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Pic is really not detailed enough to see much. Could it be a wound? Wounds will often appear whitish. Although it is an odd location for a wound - anything is possible. If he is otherwise well and eating I would try keeping very clean water (e.g. daily 50% water changes) and adding some salt. That will give it the best chance to heal. It actually works amazingly well if the fish are not too debilitated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 can my other fish have salt? Oto, cories, swordtails - is a community tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 if a fish has been attacked by an internal worm or parasite, when the worm starts to emerge from the fish's body, can it then be treated as an external parasite? the gill thing has changed slightly, the one inside that pushes the gill out is still there and there is something else just off to the side as well, same sort of thing. it is starting to look like a worm under there this one shows how the gill sticks out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadeusus Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Could be a nematode such as Philometra sp. which has been reported in subcutaneous tissues in ornamental fishes. If it is then it is likely that those big white ones are adult females, rather than larvae. The males are teeny, less than 2mm long, so the females can become gravid (egg bearing) then they pop their ovipositor out through the skin and lay their eggs into the water. Daphnia and branchurians in your tank water act as intermediate hosts allowing the lifecycle to complete in you other fish. So, if they were my fish I'd get them out of the tank, change the water and monitor the other fish. Treatment with levamisole has been reported to be successful in early stages of infection. There are reports of resistance to prazi, droncit etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadeusus Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Could be a nematode such as Philometra sp. which has been reported in subcutaneous tissues in ornamental fishes. If it is then it is likely that those big white ones are adult females, rather than larvae. The males are teeny, less than 2mm long, so the females can become gravid (egg bearing) then they pop their ovipositor out through the skin and lay their eggs into the water. Daphnia and branchurians in your tank water act as intermediate hosts allowing the lifecycle to complete in you other fish. So, if they were my fish I'd get them out of the tank, change the water and monitor the other fish. Treatment with levamisole has been reported to be successful in early stages of infection. There are reports of resistance to prazi, droncit etc. Just to clarify this relates to the original posting that started this thread. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 good news (sort of :-? haha) the 'thing' has evolved further, now I can see a loop of creature present and from the side it looks as if there is a bubble on or near the gill flap. I didn't add the second dose of formalin as planned but the original has done some good anyway (previously the swordtails were occasionally flashing, now no more). So now I will treat as per the start of the thread with some fenbendazole if I can find some! :bounce: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 ...So now I will treat as per the start of the thread with some fenbendazole if I can find some! :bounce: Fenbendazole is an excellent dewormer but is not very soluable in water so you will need to soak the food in it. If you are not keen on that, levamisole is also effective and is water soluable. Either dewormer will probably be most readily available from large animal veterinary clinics (farm animals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 that sounds easy enough - this fish is a pretty good eater I have got 150ml waiting for me at the vets to pick up tomorrow, probably way too much then as I was following the advice of the Fishlopedia, it said I need 2mg per litre of tank water. ??? Also the gooby worm is still in the bubble too - will it squirm back into the fish to die and be pooped out or should I expect to see it disappear a different way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 Someone needs to start a Fish Vet on the North Shore - I just rang the vet to see about Levamisole and they didn't have it and told me to do some more research on products I could use - it can't be that random as the Fishlopedia is an English book. Glad I didn't pay for that advice! geeez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 Yeah, you won't need much. Levamisole is most commonly found as a sheep dewormer so a large animal vet will be the best source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 so how will the worm die? It's now literally a pillion passenger hanging off the bottom side of the fish but suspended in the bubble. I have taken about 100 photos trying to get a better pic for you but no joy. The ones at the beginning of the thread are the best. So anyway, got the stuff from the vet, it's Panacur 100 and it's in a whopping big brown glass bottle. I put about a tip of a teaspoon in a container with a couple of shrimp pellets and let it soak and then dropped some in. Because I purposely made them skip breakfast they were all in there gobbling it up. Went out for a couple of hours and came back and put the rest in. It cloudied up the water which did not impress them but once they realised it was laced with food back they went haha! I can see no sign of any of them reacting to the medicine. It's feels like a haphazard way to work so I hope it works! The vet also wants to know if it works so they can note it as OK for fish as I will be their first customer to buy it for that purpose. He couldn't give any proper advice except to say it's been known to kill snails so I have removed my treasured trumpet snails. Next question for the Fishy Medicinal Oracle : when can I put the snails back in ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 you want snails in your tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I have no idea about the snails but if the chemical it is known to kill snails, I would personally wait a week or so (and a good couple of water changes) to add them back - or you could add a bunch of carbon to remove any excess. Some others here may be able to offer better advice to you on this. Be aware, many parasite lifecycles involve stages that aren't easily killed with a single dose so you may need to repeat the dose in two weeks, or if you still see the parasites, or if you are worried that they will return. Keep in mind, any chemical can cause harm, no matter how safe we think it is. Also, if a worm dies in the body of the fish, and it is not passed, it can decay and cause sepsis (generalised toxicity) which can quickly kill the fish. Unfortunately, that is the risk of treatment. Fingers crossed all will be fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 you want snails in your tank? awww I like my trumpet snails and they are helpful workers who stir up the sand for me! There are however some mini ramshorn snails in there that must have been attached to a plant that can die and I won't miss them! I have no idea about the snails but if the chemical it is known to kill snails, I would personally wait a week or so (and a good couple of water changes) to add them back - or you could add a bunch of carbon to remove any excess. Some others here may be able to offer better advice to you on this. Be aware, many parasite lifecycles involve stages that aren't easily killed with a single dose so you may need to repeat the dose in two weeks, or if you still see the parasites, or if you are worried that they will return. Keep in mind, any chemical can cause harm, no matter how safe we think it is. Also, if a worm dies in the body of the fish, and it is not passed, it can decay and cause sepsis (generalised toxicity) which can quickly kill the fish. Unfortunately, that is the risk of treatment. Fingers crossed all will be fine! Hi Jennifer I plan on giving another dose in 7 days, then 14 as one of the books recommended and there will be larger than usual water changes once a week. The other snails don't seem to be dying so I guess if they don't die in the next day or 2 when I anticipate the drugs will be well through their system that it must be reasonably OK. This morning there is no more cloudiness in the water. I could be imagining it but it looks like the worm bubble is slightly smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 finally some photos of the greeblie this afternoon it is hanging lower, seems like it could be to be up to a cm long and curled up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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