Snowman Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I have a 25cm Oscar with what appears to be HITH, been there about a week now, have dosed with salt @ 1 tblsp per20ltrs. I have 2 oscars in a 460ltr tank with a JBL crystal profi 500 and Eheim 2217 filters giving 2200ltrs per hour along with an Eheim aquaball powerhead. It did have a lot of gravel but when i salted the tank i removed the gravel to cut down on uneaten food being left to spoil. They have been in there for just over a year and the only other thing in the tank is a piece of driftwood. Reading up suggests something like Furan2 but treating 460ltrs with Furan2 is cost prohibitive. Is there anything else similar to Furan2 that will be cheaper and hopefully easily available and what are the chances of it working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Metro is what you need.. And if they are still eating it can be economical to treat them by putting it in their food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Thanks Ryan, yep still eating very well. Is Metro available from HFF? Does it include dosing instructions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Metro might be avaliable from HFF's otherwise do you know any discus breeders? Its also called flagyl. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole From memory a friend uses 5mgs of metro to 500gms of flake food mixed with agar and put in the fridge, starve the fish until they eat it. Obviously you could just scale the mix down a bit or add it to your own home made frozen food (would be awesome for oscars). They are commonly available in 400mg tablets and you use one of these per 40L of water every day with a water change, this goes through alot of it which is good that your fish are still eating because they can absorb it alot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Excellent thanks Ryan Ill give Hollywood a call in the morning Failing that ill give Wok a call, he will know someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Unless your Oscar has worms (unlikely unless they are wild-caught) Hole in the head results from a deficient diet, not a pathogen. You could give them a dose of Metro just in case it does have worms or a secondary infection, but this will also kill off gut bacteria, which will worsten the problem. You need to feed them a more varied diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Unless your Oscar has worms (unlikely unless they are wild-caught) Hole in the head results from a deficient diet, not a pathogen. You could give them a dose of Metro just in case they do have worms, but this will also kill off gut bacteria, which will worsten the problem. You need to feed them a more varied diet. metronidazole is an antiboitic and is used for treating HITH there is some reading for you which may help lots of links in there about HITH and all recommending metro to treat it. Yes it can help with some intestinal worms mainly hex but has other uses like most other drugs. Worms are also very very common in fish tanks which is why most people with large scale fish rooms etc treat all fish for worms routinely and also when they buy new fish. http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&sa ... le&spell=1 Snowman have you had any luck treating your fish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 metronidazole is an antiboitic and is used for treating HITH there is some reading for you which may help lots of links in there about HITH and all recommending metro to treat it. Yes it can help with some intestinal worms mainly hex but has other uses like most other drugs. Worms are also very very common in fish tanks which is why most people with large scale fish rooms etc treat all fish for worms routinely and also when they buy new fish. http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&sa ... le&spell=1 Snowman have you had any luck treating your fish? Some of that info is pretty out of date. There is no point using antibiotics to treat a deficient diet. Think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 lol so your saying to give the fish a different diet and it will clear the HITH up? Surely something will have to be done to actually treat it... Think about it.. Yes it is commonly known that certain fish are susceptible to it, and contributing factors are poor water quality, poor diet etc etc, but once you have it you have to treat it with something and that is metro, a few of those links are from last year, has the treatment or knowledge of HITH changed that recently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 That just demonstrates that the interweb is a great way to perpetuate out of date knowledge. Hole-in-the-head is a symptom of mineral difficiencies, which is more often caused by inadequate diet than some mythical bacterial infection. Metro also kills off gut bacteria, further reducing the fish's ability to take up nutrients. If your fish has a worm infection that is consuming the nutrients before the fish can (unlikely) then you need to treat them with a de-wormer (Droncit derivatives etc.), not an antibiotic. If you treat with Metro you might kill off a secondary infection, but you still haven't dealt with the underlying cause. Think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 OK so my Oscar is starting to show signs of HITH, his diet consists of prawn, ox heart, cichlid sticks and trout pallets. After reading your vigorous discussion I am a bit confused as to how to treat him. 1) add to his diet? 2) use Metro? 3 use Droncit? He is in a very well filtered 5 footer with stable water parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 The info that I read suggested treating with metro in the food, some sites say this is useless (as per tHEcONCH's suggestions) seems the info differs alot so who knows what to do really? The only common thing I have found on these sites is to not let your fish get it by doing regular water changes feeding a varied diet etc etc, this doesn't help when your fish do get it though? If I was you I would do a google search and make up your own mind. I have done a bit of research on it and been recommended by very experienced fish keepers who have done heaps of research etc and they recommend treating with metro and also metro as a prevention. I have never treated it or had a fish with it so have no idea maybe tHEcONCH can help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 OK so my Oscar is starting to show signs of HITH, his diet consists of prawn, ox heart, cichlid sticks and trout pallets. After reading your vigorous discussion I am a bit confused as to how to treat him. 1) add to his diet? 2) use Metro? 3 use Droncit? He is in a very well filtered 5 footer with stable water parameters. As ryanjury says, do a trawl of the internet and make up your own mind, but this is what I'd do: Are you 100% confident it is Hole-in-theHead? This is Hole-in-the-head This IS NOT Hole-in-the-head (Nares Pores / Sensory Pits) Measure your water parameters including pH and 'hardness' (measure the kH and/or dH). Hole-in-the-head is more likely to occur in very soft water (because its associated with mineral deficiencies). Fish can absorb minerals through their gills - but not if there aren't any present in the water, so if your water is very soft add something like JBL aqua-Dur to make sure it has some 'hardness' and contains some calcium and other trace elements. Don't overdo it, because it will affect your pH. Assuming your water has a low pH Aqua-Dur will raise it toward nuetral - not a bad theing for an Oscar, but the change has to be gradual. You could also treat for worms as a precaution (not going to do much harm if there aren't any - you can buy (Orange flavoured) de-wormers for humans from your chemist - Trawl the internet for the dosage once you buy something and know the drug content - crush it up and add it to food) and neither will it hurt to add variety to the fish's diet. Try feeding smallish snails - full of goodness! JBL make a range of vitamin enriched foods that will help, and you can add a vitamin supplement to your fish's other foods (you can't actually get good fish vitamin supplements easily in NZ, but Flukers (via Hothouse Turtles) make a reptile one that is better than nothing). Keep up the water changes. I wouldn't treat for a secondary infection unless you are confident it has one - fuzzyness around the holes etc, or a bloated gut. If it is bloated, treat with Metro for a gut infection, if it has fuzz or skin problems use furan2 (Evil stuff, read the warnings). Be patient - I've only treated it once (co-incidentally in an Oscar who is an extremely fussy eater) and it resolved after about six months of hardened water and a better diet - I didn't use any drugs). Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Thanks Conch, As I am on rain water i knew that my water was very soft and may be a cause of the problem. I am slowly trying to harden my water and add minerals buy gradually adding crushed oyster shells. I will add snails to his diet, worm him and look into increasing the trace elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I think water softness might be your problem - its the logical place to start anyway. Natural freshwater in rivers is also very soft, but it still contains an inexhaustable supply of trace elements, including calcium etc.. Crushed Oyster shells will help, but perhaps not at a rate that you fish needs. Here are the trace elements found in freshwater (I don't know where you'd find normal concentrations): Sb, Mo, Sn, Ti, Al, As, Ba, Be, Cd, Cr, Co, Cu, Pb, Mn, Ni, Se, Ag, Tl, Th, U, V, Zn, Ca, Fe, Mg, K, Na. You'll already have some (like Pb :-? ) in your rainwater, but you might want to consider adding something with readily dissolvable carbonates to your water too, and perhaps a source of trace elements. JBL's Aqua-Dur would be my choice (I used 2 teaspoons every 200 litre weekly water change), but you could perhaps use a marine product like Seachem's Reef Builder (in very small quantities) if you can't find Aqua-Dur. Seachem's Reef Plus would also be a good sourch of trace elements (again its a marine product and not ideal, but a pretty good start - just be careful not to overdose with either - your fish can only absorb it slowly anyway, but you'll need to keep replacing it every time you do a water change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I think water softness might be your problem - its the logical place to start anyway. Natural freshwater in rivers is also very soft, but it still contains an inexhaustable supply of trace elements. I have a river water supply that is piped to the house but only ever use it for the fish tanks when rain water gets low (once or twice a year) The water is very good quality as it is pumped to our house only a few hundred meters from the rivers source at the base of the takaka hill. the only reason that i haven't used it more was for fear of parasites. Perhap's I should try using this water in the oscar tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I wouldn't - for the reason you've identified. You just don't know what is in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiplymouth Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Ok. Another bright idea was to use some PMDD. Of couse it's not a planted tank but PMDD does contain many trace elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I'm not familiar with that, but the problem with things designed to support plant growth is that they support plant growth - including algae. Marine products generally don't which helps keep other problems in check. Anyhoo, off to do some water changes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Metro/Flagyl Is NOT an Antibiotic. It is used to kill Flagylates (sp) not worms.(hence its Name) It may kill worms as a bi product of dosing all chemicals may kill gut bacteria this will not effect appitite may effect gut function and form May kill off tank bioload to some extent has a short half life so thats why repeated dosing if adding to H20 if dosing tank lower water watch filter Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Metro/Flagyl Is NOT an Antibiotic. Navarre Navarre, you are just plain wrong. Do you know what Anti-biotic means? Metro has been used as a broad spectrum anti-biotic in humans as well as animals for years. The fact that it has other properties and uses and is marketed accordingly doesn't mean it isn't an antibiotic. Perhaps you need to do a little more research, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 In common usage, an antibiotic is a substance or compound (also called chemotherapeutic agent) that kills or inhibits the growth of bacteria. Wikipeadia Antibiotics belong to the group of antimicrobial compounds, i.e., those for treating infections caused by microorganisms, including viruses, fungi, and protozoa. Wikipeadia I have used common resources so you will all have access Anti Biotic is anti bacteria Fagyl is an anti flagilate therefore is an anti microbial like silver. next you will be suggesting disinfectatnts are the same as antispetics. as I suggested may have cross over but not the same. May also be used in anearobic bacteria but is not the best when used singularly Metronidazole is used to treat parasitic infections including Giardia infections of the small intestine, amebic liver abscess and amebic dysentery (infection of the colon causing bloody diarrhea), bacterial vaginosis, trichomonas vaginal infections, and carriers of trichomonas (both sexual partners) who do not have symptoms of infection. Metronidazole is also used alone or in combination with other antibiotics in treating abscesses in the liver, pelvis, abdomen and brain caused by susceptible anaerobic bacteria. Metronidazole is also used in treating infection of the colon caused by a bacterium called C. difficile. (Many commonly-used antibiotics can alter the type of bacteria that inhabit the colon. C. difficile is an anaerobic bacterium that can infect the colon when the normal types of bacteria in the colon are inhibited by common antibiotics. This leads to inflammation of the colon (pseudomembranous colitis) with severe diarrhea and abdominal pain.) Metronidazole also is used in combination with other drugs to treat Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) that causes stomach or intestinal ulcers. Metronidazole topical gel is used for treating acne rosacea, and the vaginal gel is used for treating bacterial vaginosis. MedicineNet.com Not Used where I am as an antibacterial only as anit flagylate and yes I do know what I am talking about Is old drug 1st generation superceded by better drugs that is why many people struggle to get it for fish bit like oxycycline doxycyline and tetracyclines bit like when you combine clauvulonic acid with amoxicillian to get Augmentin both kill things. do it better together But I am no expert. Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 So... Metro/Flagyl Is NOT an Antibiotic. And... …an antibiotic is a substance or compound… that kills or inhibits the growth of bacteria. But... Metronidazole is used to treat … bacterial vaginosis…Metronidazole is also used alone or in combination with other antibiotics… Metronidazole is also used in treating infection of the colon caused by a bacterium… Which leads to the conclusion... But I am no expert. Navarre That seems to be the case :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ahhh yes well now I can see why some people get banned. Just because some thing is used as an antibiotic does not mean it IS an antibiotic. Gylceral trinitrate for example stops chest pain. In another life it blows stuff up Digitalis kills things. Quckily. Looks nice. And is used daily by thousands of People to slow heart rates. There is enough raw nicotine in a single cigerette to kill several people when put in solution yet still people put suicide by installment sticks in their mouths and light them. Flagyl is an anti microbial agent that has an antibiotic effect and an anti flagylate action. Primary use in Flagylates Silver is made into a nice shiny thing yet it is also one of the most effective anti MICROBIAL agents know. Yet in any more than 1 part per million it comes out of concentration and can kill you... Semanitics Easy to cut and paste part of a conversation tho eh. Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaNs Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Iv got a pile of trace element mix here Im the one with the PMDD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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