Romeo Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Hey, I've got a Koura and two Inanga (scaleless). I've heard that plant fertilizers are designed to be taken in by the fish, but then harmlessly excreted through their scale system somehow. Well, none of my creatures have scales - so where does that leave me? I can't find anything on the major aquarium forums, or on here, so I thought I'd ask before I rush out and buy some. I'm keen on API's Leaf Zone, as I've read some good things on the American forums about it - as it's 1/3rd the price and not quite as powerful as the Flourish XL stuff. Ideally, I'd just like to grow a lot of lush Java Moss (enough to coat the diagonal log in the background) - but it seems like that's above me as it is! - PS: I've got a DIY Jelly CO2 system that's been steadily putting out 1bps for the last week. I've had it running through the power head, but it's caused a drop in pH from a healthy 7.0, down to 6.4 - it seems that this happens within about a 6 hour period and overnight the pH rises back to 7. Since this is probably enough to kill my fishes I've stopped until I can find something that'll buffer my pH. Any ideas? (I've got about 5-6 TuaTua shells in there currently, but they take a while to react to pH changes) PSS: I've got a Grolux 60cm single tube running 12+ hours a day also. Tank is 80*30*30 - Ammonia, Nitrate/Nitrite either 0 or low. PSSS: You try keeping your plants looking neat when you've got a crayfish in your tank! Cheers, Romeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 One growlux for 12 hours is low light so adding ferts or CO2 will not achieve what you are after.. You need high light, ferts, CO2 and lots of established plants for it to work or you will just culture algae. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supasi Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Id be very worried about the Koura in low ph conditions. I know they prefer harder water, and their shell is made of calcium. Acidic conditions and calcium to me is not really a good mix. Correct me if Im wrong people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I have Java moss growing like a weed in a 2ft tank with just one 15w colour 96 fluorescent tube over the top - and a whole bunch of guppies, no ferts, substrate or Co2. Takes a bit of time to get established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Hey Romeo, that tank is looking great!! Native fish are found in all sorts of acidities, ranging from pH 5-8 and wider beyond that. There MIGHT be something in the crayfish struggling in low pH water, I am not sure. There is probably something findable through scholar.google.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Here we go: From: http://www.limnol.lu.se/limnologen/publ ... er/512.pdf "Trout streams typically had a pH above 6.4 whereas crayfish were found across the whole pH spectrum (4.1-7.9)." "In contrast to some studies, my results did not show any distribution limitations for crayfish other than substratum size in streams without trout. Most crayfish species seem to be negatively affected by acid water of pH <5.5 (summarised in Nyström 2002) and their distribution is limited to habitats with calcium concentrations above 2.0 mg L-1 (Naura and Robinson 1998). In this study, crayfish were caught in streams with pH as low as 4.1, and low calcium concentrations, down to 0.9 mg L-1. Many brown water streams in New Zealand have a naturally low pH due to high concentrations of organic acids, and also high concentrations of aluminium, which is rendered non-toxic through complexation with dissolved organic matter (Collier et al. 1990). Both native crayfish and some native fish species in New Zealand seem to be well adapted to this stream environment (Collier et al. 1990). It is unlikely that pH, by itself, could account for the lower abundance of crayfish in the more circumnatural streams. My opinion is therefore that it is the presence of trout that affects both crayfish and galaxiid abundance in these streams. Smith et al. (1996) showed that water chemistry had relatively little influence on crayfish abundance in Britain and that other factors, like predation, were more important. The distribution of brown trout seems to be limited by pH and calcium concentration, and few fish are found where the pH is below 5.0 and calcium levels are below 1.0 mg L-1 (Hesthagen and Jonsson 2002, 1998). McIntosh (2000b) argued, that there is a possibility that trout will not affect native fishes in some streams, simply because the physical conditions are not suitable for trout. New Zealand brown streams, with low pH and low calcium, can therefore act as “safe” areas for both native crayfish and galaxiids. Waterfalls are known to be barriers for upstream trout migration (Townsend and Crowl 1991) and areas above waterfalls can therefore also act as refuges for galaxiids and crayfish in these streams." (my emphasis) (yes it is a rather painfully large paragraph) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Can anyone confirm whether or not fertilizers will affect my scaleless fish and invertebrate? Will respond more in depth when I get back from the Animates sale :] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 There are various tropical scaleless fish, clowns for instance. Try searching if ferts cause problems for them. I really can't imagine scaled fish are able to squeeze much out past their scales, they have other, much easier, ways of eliminating waste! Crays can be sensitive to some chemicals (eg dechlorinators). It is possible that no one actually knows if ferts are safe for our native crays or not. Probably the only way of guessing this is to search for information on exotic crayfish. On the other hand the ferts should be taken up quickly by the plants (hence the need to apply regularly) and should be organic chemicals that would be in natural waterbodies anyway... The big problem (and a huge part of why I am writing my book) is that there is virtually no available information on how to keep native fish, with the excpetion of this forum and a few very basic sites. It is pretty much trial-and-error for every individual keeper at the moment. I had the joy of discovering that while all native diadromous galaxiids are fine with malachite and formalin, their cousins, the (threatened) mudfish, are killed by it. Dixon (I think) found that dechlorinators are poisonous to crays. Ok they were not hte first times these things were discovered but at least they will be in the book now. Over time this body of knowledge will be built up as more and more people keep them and spread their experiences. It drives me mad sometimes that I don't have many resources to go to for info, especially when guessing could be a matter of life or death for a fish, but we are somewhat stuck with that for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supasi Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Will respond more in depth when I get back from the Animates sale :] Damn weekend sales. They only seem to have them the weekends that I have to work and cant get down to the closest store which about an hour away. So koura do live in acid conditions!!! I would have thought the low levels of calcium would not be good for them. What adaptable creatures our country has Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Perhaps the issue here would be the swings in ph rather than what the level was. Perhaps you could use fertiliser balls in the substrate by the roots of the plants rather than adding liquid ferts to the water if you are concerned. This is of course, no help for the Java moss, but as Alanmin says, unless you have substantial lighting Co2 and ferts will be of no help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Only for the interested! Below is just a little bit of research I've done. The majority of forums I've searched seem to hold the opinion that "they wont harm your invertebrates if used at the recommended dosages". However, if you're quadrupling the dosage without adequate plant density to absorb the trace elements, then it may start to have a detrimental effect. Also, there were a few threads with titles like "Fertilizer xxx killed my shrimp!", but these usually turned out to be spikes in Nitrate, Ammonia or Copper from somewhere. Apparently some fertilizers have Nitrate or copper in them, which is not good/poisonous to invertebrates! kimmisc":1f3h2i8m]I don't know what the difference between Flourish Trace and normal (just) Flourish is, but I use Excel and plain Flourish in my tanks with ghost shrimp, cherry shrimp, red ramshorn snails, pond snails (wish they'd die), and apple snails (brigs). No deaths. I've been using these for several months, and for the past couple weeks have been tripling the Excel dose to fight beard algae. Still no deaths. Rain":1f3h2i8m]I have used PMDD (DIY liquid fertiliser), Seachem Flourish, Seachem Flourish Excel, Seachem Flourish Trace, Tropica Master Grow, TetraPlant Crypto tablets, Tetra Initial Sticks, Sera Floreplus tablets, eSHa products and self made clay+peat balls in my snail+shrimp tanks without ill effects. And of those, only Seachem Flourish has nitrates in it. Ade":1f3h2i8m]The only time you would have problems with Easycarbo or Excel would be if you overdosed it, as at higher dosages it is toxic to most life forms. MOST commercial liquid ferts, when used at manufacturers recommended dosages (or in high tech tanks, only a bit above this) are not harmful to shrimp or other inverts. Only when overdosed badly do they become dangerous for shrimp, usually the trace or all in one ones as these contain trace levels of copper. The decision as to whether do dose regular ferts though is going to be one you can make easily. Just ask yourself what the focus of the tank is going to be. Do you want a planted tank with some shrimp (dose ferts regularly) or a shrimp tank with some plants (dose just enough ferts to keep plants healthy, chose plants that are not demanding). DarylF2":1f3h2i8m]I used Excel almost daily in my 38-gallon tank with 1 large Flower shrimp and 6 Amano shrimp (and have for more than 6 months), and they all appear to be doing very well. Purrbox (moderator)":1f3h2i8m]Flourish Excel should be safe with shrimps and other inverts when used at the recommended levels. Some have even reported using it safely with hardier shrimp like Cherry Red Shrimp, when overdosing to treat algae. If you're going to overdose in a tank with inverts or delicate fish, it's always a good idea to proceed slowly. Start out with the recommended dose, then increase slowly as long as you don't see any signs of distress. Be prepared to perform a water change should you see any problems. Turtles808":1f3h2i8m]I use excel in my tanks all the time. I've even used it at 3x recommended for algae w/o any effects on my shrimp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 There is no point in adding CO2 and ferts unless you have strong light. The ferts and CO2 are the building blocks the plants need to grow and the light gives the energy to do it. Without good light it is like you sitting in front of a massive feast but being too tired to eat it. However the algae will love you for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Ah, fair enough. Apparently I've only got 0.4WPL in my tank¹. I'll look at upgrading the lighting when I can afford it :]. Was told by someone in a previous post that a Grolux would be best². Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Grolux are fine, but it depends on how many tubes you have, and you can always mix the tube colours if you do not like the pink look. Do Koura like high light conditions? - you may need to buy them sunglasses! Or provide them lots of hidey holes, and I thought they were rather partial to re-arranging plants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted January 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 RE Zev I've only got a single 20w tube, according to many that's not enough. So I've shifted the goalposts to growing lots of Java moss. My Koura has never seemed to mind the light, though I have noticed that it's not so keen on the Grolux tube for some reason, even though it is dimmer than the bright white light. The Inanga seem to prefer the Grolux tube though, they're always out and about. I've now got some of these tiny little leaves (with roots) floating on my tank and they seem to multiply nightly. Hopefully they'll provide a bit more cover for them - as I noticed that when I had the top of the tank covered with loose plants the Koura and Inanga were out a lot more. Seems they prefer to have something above them to provide protection from predators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Hmm... tiny leaves with roots, like this? http://www.fnzas.org.nz/index.php?PG=plant&PID=LM1 After they have taken over your tank, you need not bother with Co2, there won't be enough light for the rest of the plants to take advantage of it! Stella has this in her four foot native tank, well, she used to, don't know if she still does after the Dec08 incident, and shifting flats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 YEp, still got the Lemna I like it, provides a bit of surface cover. Only got it in tanks that are modeled after slow-water habitats. I was poking about in a stream today and to our utter astonishment we found Lemna growing up a rock wall dripping with water, and Azolla (the reddish floating fern one) growing on a rock like a moss or liverwort! Lemna needs to be thinned back dramatically when it threatens to take over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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