Stella Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 My kokopu's tail has gone very odd in the last 24 hours. They have very thick, short, square tails. This one developed a large white circular area in the center of the fin, like it had been abraided, just on one side. On both sides the membrane in between the fin rays puffed up, just like a fluid-filled blister. The membranes closest to the 'abrasion' were most puffed. This morning the 'abrasion' area has doubled in size and is still circular. It is nearly the whole tail area. It looks like the tail is going to disintegrate! It has gone right down to the point where the tail joins the body. There is NO fluffy fungus or anything. The other fish are looking a little odd. THree of them were out this morning but usually they are hiding until mid-afternoon. It looks like a tiny first-suggestion of fin-rot may be happening on the edges of the other fish. (someone else has a round lesion on a fish recently and heater burn was eventually blamed. These are coldwater fish so no heater) I took some photos last night and I will try to get some of the larger area in the next few minutes and get them uploaded here. Am thinking of salting the tank. Have done a waterchange. Would like to put something topically on the fin as it is spreading so fast, not sure what. Have malachite, formalin, methylene, malafix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 Here are the photos. Yesterday: Today: The other side of the tail yesterday, note the puffed up membranes and how the lesion/abrasion is not on this side: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 OK, am adding salt (1/2tsp per litre) Just pulled fish out and methylene blued his tail. Let it soak a little and put fish back. The fin is quite nicely blue now... Just now I saw four 'fits'! Just for one second the fish vibrates quickly, maintaining balance and it acts like nothing happened afterwards. It is as if the fish has general control of its body, but a shudder happens, like sudden, very fast Parkinson's. The fish is acting normally in all other regards. I really hope someone has some ideas soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 I have lots of ideas but none that would be of any help to you at all! :-? I assume there is nothing in the tank that may have sucked on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 Thanks Caryl. No sucky fish, and I contemplated the koura but that is not likely either (especially as it doubled in size overnight!) I visited WetPets just now (I have a tame petshopguy who's advice I trust) and he said he would have recommended exactly what I have done. Though suggested malachite green might pack a stronger punch than methylene blue. He had no idea what it could be either. He thought the 'fits' were an irritation thing. Fish looking much the same as before. Tiny areas on other fish's fin edges maybe fractionally bigger. Have put ice in to bring the temp down a bit and hopefully slow the spread. SO glad I am not having kids. The stress of being a parent to fish is bad enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 sigh, still looking bad. Little patches on other fish seem to be growing. The main fish's tail is looking awful. just fin fays sticking out from halfway down tail. Membrane falling apart. Am currently drenched after putting malachite green on it again. This is an 18cm fish we are talking about! Little sod.... Even so I hate to think what this little sod will look like in the morning. This is spreading so fast! No more fits. Colour and behaviour still fine. Infection definitely reached flesh though. NOT GOOD. If things are worse in the morning I think I will have to go all out and dose the tank with 200 drops of malachite and 200 drops of formalin..... I can't deal with losing these fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 Don't know what would have caused it but now sounds like fin rot so you will need an antibiotic---perhaps furan 2. I have used malachite for similar things but you may need something stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted December 16, 2008 Report Share Posted December 16, 2008 I have no ideas sorry, I'd be doing what you're doing. Hope it gets better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Do you have any problems with the native fish reacting badly to medication? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 not so far. The only biggie is mudfish seem to be sensitive to malachite green and formalin. Used it on all other fish ok. Conveniently they are all able to cope pretty well with salt. Most have been to sea in the early part of their lives (diadromous), and those that haven't have a recent sea-going ancestor. I currently have some (non-diadromous) Cran's bullies in a serious amount of salt for whitespot, and they are just fine. The fish is still looking awful. I ought to pull him out and malachite him topically again. If this fish lives I really worry whether his tail will grow back (tail still there, but seriously mangled) The areas on the other fishes fins are slowly growing since this morning. Still no fluffiness, just tissue whitening and disintegrating. ... OK just malachited him. The fish, the walls and I are now blue. I put melafix in the tank this morning. THis afternoon I am thinking it is not helping. Maybe I should have hit out with malachite green and formalin to begin with? I don't know. ok if I do the mal and form I don't want to be counting out 400 individual drops. I have 200lt to medicate. How do I work out the volume to use? I need 1 drop per litre or each med. Pretty much in tears over this, I don't know what to do and I really don't want a tank full of big dead fish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 14 drops = 1ml. you therefore need 14.25mls of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Malachite green is used to test if the naughty butcher has been adding sulpher dioxide into his meat when he shouldn't have. It will be neutralized with sodium metabisulphite which is used by home brewers to sanitize bottles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Why not put him in a smaller tank and just treat him? Will save you money on meds, and wont harm the others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Thanks Alan MUCH easier So are you some sort of chemist? And why would a butcher put sulphur dioxide in meat? Dixon, there would be some sense in treating them separately, only they all need treating and I don't have a spare 4' tank hanging around. I realised halfway through pouring the meds in that I have no idea what effect it has on koura. Had to completely pull apart his rock pile and generally have a rather aggressive argument with him while trying to extricate him... Cray is now in a bucket with a few inches of water while I wonder what the hell to do with him :roll: Tank is now a disturbing blue. What do I do next? I forgot... another 40% waterchange in two days and replace the med that was removed? The areas on the fins of the other fish still slowly growing. Not in a terrible state yet, but growing is not good. The original fishes' tail still looks awful. Pretty much the whole tail is shot. Still no secondary fungus on anyone, which seems odd as the affected areas just seem necrotic and disintegrating. The fish are all still behaving normally, though possibly a little off their food. I still feel utterly depressed about the situation but now I feel like i have done everything I can possibly do. (must get some more mal and form today....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Sulphur dioxide is made available by dissolving metabisulphate in water. It reacts with the haemoglobin and goes red. If the butcher adds mutton to the mince it goes grey so they add SO2 to make it a nice red colour. They are allowed to add it to processed meat like sausages but not to minced meat. The Inspectors from the Dept of Health carry tablets of Malachite green to see if it has been added. Crush a tab--add water and mix with minced meat. If the green colour goes clear then S02 is present. I am not a chemist but I can read the instructions on some of my meds. "add 14 drops (1ml)........" Also I have got rid of green hands that way in the past and it does work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 two days after the first photos, three days after the issue was first noticed: the side of the tail that was first afftected the other side of the tail (um, the lower blurry fish is just closer to the camera.... not really that big!) Three days.... and this ain't no tiny flimsy fish. this is a big 18cm fish with fleshy fins and a big fat body. I fed the fish for the first time since seeing this and they weren't fussed. They ate a little (not the worst-affected fish) but normally I couldn't feed them without being drenched by their enthusiasm. May of course be a side effect of the onslaught of medication. Still no fluffiness, just a lot of dead tissue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Bugger - hate to say that it is not looking the best.... Have you contacted Fishbait for some assistance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Oh Stella, that looks horrible. I wish I knew of some way to help! How many fish is this effecting so far? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Imsmith, it has affected all four giant kokopu (the other three to a much lesser degree) but strangely it has not affected the one banded kokopu yet. Am contemplating getting him the hell out of there but not sure what to do with him then... I only have so much room! (hmmm..... possibly have an idea for that which might work...) Also thinking of getting the worst-hit kokopu into a smaller tank today and treating him there. I had hoped the mal and form would have done something by now, but they say it is less effective the more other biological stuff is in the tank. I wasn't going to do that due to stress and temperature, but as the illness gets more drastic so will I! Zev, who is Fishbait and shouldn't I be concerned about asking such a name for assistance?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 It may be too late but it is bacterial and needs an antibiotic. Furan 2 is the easiest to obtain without a vet. Way too serious for what you are using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zev Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Fishbait works at that place in Napier with the big fish tanks... I have sent him the link to this thread, but I don't know if he is around at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Thanks Alan, Will get hold of some Furan 2 immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Right, one hours later and I am SOAKED!! Seeing just how much Furan it would take to treat my big tank (and just how unemployed I am) and how like most meds it is more effective with less misc other life for it to work on, I have put the fish into hospital tanks. Conveniently I have three two-foot tanks cluttering up the place... One tank has the worst affected fish, the next has two medium-affected fish, and the last has the two least affected fish. I put in a couple of rocks for them to hide behind but that is all. They are now looking rather startled and sitting on the bottom of the tanks. Gawd I hope this works! Apparently tomorrow I put another capsule in each tank (each tank has exactly the right amount of water for one capsule) and the next day I do a 25% waterchange and add another capsule. Hopefully by that time things will start working......! Hell, now I need to grab an apple and head into town for an appointment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 gawd, now the least-affected fish is getting buoyancy issues and looking like he won't survive the night! looking for nearest rock to crawl under.... not coming out until at least February Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Well, maybe it's too late to save the worst one, but hopefully the furan 2 will help the others. Are the other ones tails looking eaten yet, or only the spot from the first pic? Are the spots only on the tails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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