Rio670 Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 a common bristlenose with a golden bristlenose???, havin a debate with my brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 They are different variances of the same species, so yes you can, but it weakens the stock of both common and golden varieties, so most serious fish keepers would much prefer you didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Visser Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 yes but why do you want to do that ?? the fry will just be hybrids!! worthless ! :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 They are different variances of the same species, Not quite, The commons, Albinos and GBAs we have here could be different species from the ancistrus genus, and this is another reason not to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 yes but why do you want to do that ?? the fry will just be hybrids!! worthless ! :roll: with 130 odd different species of ancistrus known so far, many of which look ing like what we know as "common" bristlenoses, such as sp.claro or cirrhosus or sp.tamboensis which share the common name then the chances of a pure line Ancistrus species that is 100% bonafide would almost impossible here. Even the so-called 'starlights' aren't right. I can only think of the medusa's that might be the exception, and they seem to be a bugger to breed. Yes they will breed and they will be hybrids, and they will be worthless in terms of money but they will hoover your algae as happily as all the other worthless hybrids out there. I give my fry away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio670 Posted November 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 my brother has a male common and i have two gba females, he wants to breed them and sell them, i was trying to tell him that i did'nt think it would be a good idea, hence the debate...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 YOu could breed them, and you could sell them, But you shouldnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 Maybe put up a post on here and try and find a male gba and female normal.. I probably have a spare female common kicking around somewhere if your friend wanted.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 are the bristlenose spp's found in the same areas? (i think ive asked this q somewhere before to no avail). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 Dont think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 hmm... my views on genetic modifications are mostly unacceptable judging from the above posts, :lol: lol ha ha... ive read so many books that talk about increasing genetic variation - however if they are not found in the wild together then it is fair to assume crosses do not exist in the wild. BUT if they are found together in any part of the world, then it is fair to assume that some out there will have cross bred thus increasing the gene pool - a good thing for the Darwinists out there. brings me back to another valid point - why so anti crossbreeding? (not trying to start an argument ppl - lol... just want to know more and learn other points of view). we cross breed almost everyother spp known to man (cats, dogs, pigs, cows...veges, fruit etc etc...) oh and yes i think it would be horrible to introduce a hybrid into wild popns if the spp does not already exist in the wild - unless research showed otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 Its nice to be able to think that in 20 years we will be able to breed GBA and not have brown/Starlight BNs come out as offspring, just GBA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 I guess an aspect that I don't like is that you don't know what the offspring of the hybrids will look like. I bought 6 GBA from a breeder when they were really small, and they looked perfect. I was hoping to breed them to get pure GBA babies. As they're growing, 3 of them have dark pigmentation spots on their tails - so I now know that they're hybrids, or their parents are. Now if I breed them, what do I sell the offspring as? They could be just like mine were, and look good as babies, but then grow up with stupid spots. I think hybridasation in itself is fine - you're right, it helps to extend the GP and can result in stronger stock. However, I think it should be done responsibly, and the offspring should be sold as hybrids so people know what they're buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 my brother has a male common and i have two gba females, he wants to breed them and sell them, i was trying to tell him that i did'nt think it would be a good idea, hence the debate...... No -it wouldn't be a good idea. If he chooses to do so he should at least inform people of the cross. Even better do as Ryan suggests, but these guys are so messed up here in terms of hybrids it is more of a placebo than actually achieving much in terms of species purity, although as Ryan knows I totally support the principal. Ancistrus come from all over Sth America. Peru , Paraquay, Brazil, Venezuela etc. I'd be keen to know who has a definite species that they are breeding, and not under the title common bristlenose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 lol... that's not exactly how it works. that's why ppl selectively breed- and then they get weak offspring :lol: i see what you mean though.. i wouldn't mind getting starlights personally, lol..... i suppose it would help to know the genotypes and allele combinations that lead to a specific trait. and i don't mean the basic genotype - but the effect of changing (tweaking) certain aspects of the gene by breeding. bit hard to do though considering the fish are worth peanuts and a karyotype costs $1500 plus costs of research etc would be millions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 Ask Mr pleco what he thinks about Starlight http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/starli ... 34661.html Before you go down the Mary Shelly road, perhaps ask why our importers of plecs, common or fancy persist in wanting to giving new names to already named fish or make up a name because the fish they've bought was a bargain basement price from the supplier because it was even at that stage un-named. People in the states or europe have no problems obtaining individual BN's species and I don't think they all have Science degrees, just more enlightened suppliers to the hobby. Early days but we are trying eh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuglyDragon Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Before you go down the Mary Shelly road, perhaps ask why our importers of plecs, common or fancy persist in wanting to giving new names to already named fish or make up a name because the fish they've bought was a bargain basement price from the supplier because it was even at that stage un-named. People in the states or europe have no problems obtaining individual BN's species and I don't think they all have Science degrees, just more enlightened suppliers to the hobby. Early days but we are trying eh! Because I am far more likely to order a 'blue spotted pleco' when i see it on the list than if they had called it a 'starlight'which it what it was... 2 more unidentifiable spotted ancistrus for my collection look exactly the same as my other starlights to my eye... and why oh why are they all females ??? 6 females, whats the odds... my 2 cents on the whole bn hybrid thing... remebering the GBA's are just a genetic morph of one of the 'common bn' species, a variation on the albino morph. albino BN's are also a genetic morph on one of the 'common bn' species These are natural mutations that can and do occur in nature across many different species (the GBA morph is common in reptiles apparently,and there are pictures of lions etc on the web with the same color mutation) it is called Amelanism Such mutations rarely survive in nature because they are easy prey for predators so wild examples are rarely found but they do exist. (There are pics of an albino mango plec that was wild caught) So the GBA and Albino that we know have been created by selective crossbreeding anyway to fix the mutation and make it reoccur in each generation. They are effectively 'genetically engineered' by man because they appeal to keepers of ornamental fish As such there is no wild populations of either. In my opinion as they were created to appeal to hobbyists I see no problem in futher hybridistaion to make other color morphs, variations. Maintainign pure genetic lines of any species is beyond most hobbyists abilities anyways and IMHO should be left up to zoos and similar organisations with trained scientific staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsmith Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 fuglydragon, don't you think that leaving pure line breeding up to zoos etc is short sighted? If many other hobbies (horses, cats, dogs etc) can do it, why should fish hobbiests not even try to preserve good specimins for the future? Granted, lots of people don't know what they're doing. That's where a site like this fits in; people can learn about what they're doing and (hopefully) make more informed decisions about what they're breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 good post. Although I can't agree with your last assertion. No zoo here would be interested as far as I'm aware in a pleco breeding program breeding. There are a number of people who have spent much time energy and their own money to ensure some pleco's remain within our shores, particularly as organisations like Ibama clamp down on exportation, and as our importation rules may change. We now have plecs like L066, L333. L260.L136, L046, that are here in numbers because of peoples hard work. I know of colonies of other pure strains like L128, L200, L239, L400, that are growing up with the hope of breeding. with your philosphy fugly all of the above fish could be gone from NZ within 10 yrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracoz Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 L046 here in numbers also? where are they hiding? love them and yet to locate them tho, hope someone is breeding them and be more available to the public in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 the ones I saw were under rocks and wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracoz Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Arggggg...wish we could breed them like GBA!!! all i can find under my rocks and wood !!! Put me on their waiting list if anyone out there is breeding them!! Years of waiting and I am still waiting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 The funny thing about Hypans is that they do breed like Gba's once they get going. It's the triggering thats the key - Ask Mr pleco.I'm sort of guessing that he must have been a locksmith in another life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio670 Posted November 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 well i did open a can of worms with that one lol, well i have settled that topic with my brother, thanks all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuglyDragon Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 with your philosphy fugly all of the above fish could be gone from NZ within 10 yrs. I am sorry, but without wild imports they will be gone from NZ and it wont take anything like 10 years... I should have been more specific in my original post... I doubt any NZ hobby breeder has the resources to maintain a viable genetic pool of 'fancy' plecos. I doubt the hobby as a whole has the resources, there simply arnt enough of these rare plecs imported into the country. Unless we as a hobby are able to procure hundreds of identifiable genetic 'individuals' they will eventually become extremly inbred, and eventually they will 'die out' Even if we manage to breed a few pairs, it won't be long before the successive generations become inbred and likely sterile.. I really can't see a captive breeding program in NZ for rare 'fancy' plecs being able to maintain a genetically viable population without occasional wild imports to refresh the gene pool. thats not even taking into account the fact that as the scientific commmunity has yet to positivelly identify and classify the vast majority of these catfish, so ensureing we have 'pure strains' of the same species to breed from is a major hurdle. Zoo's and similar organisations should be left to raiseing viable genetic populations for re intorduction to replace dwindling wild stocks, or endangoured wild stocks, and no I can't see any NZ zoo becoming involved in a plec breeding program either... but they are breeding kiwis here to try to bolster wild populations... so maybe one day we might see similar programs in South America for dwindling populations of 'fancy' plecs... Good luck to all the other pleco fanatics out there trying to captive breed the 'fancy' plecs, I certainly have my own colonies I am hopeing / trying to breed but I wouldnt rely on us as a group being able to maintain 'NZ populations' of any of these fish indefinately by captive breeding.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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