Firebird peacocks?

[Navarre]

You all make some very good points.

Some I will take much more seriously than others.

My point is still the same.

I breed fish. I do it because I like doing it. I have worked hard to get the fish I have. If they are not the real deal then I will be disapointed. But that is as far as those fish go. As you say Quality is much better than Quanity

I am at time geographically isolated to some of the good fish I want.

I dont mix specie or sub specie so what I get I keep "pure".

But I am only as good as the person I brought my fish from in the first place.

So now I have some fish that were sold to me (by a trusted fisho) as A. sp Rubens Firebird. I have not mixed em with anything else but now what do I call em. And if I breed em, do I sell em even if they breed true?

Just the same with the A sp M Reds or Golds or so on.

I can search the ether and as you say get different results depending on the local of the posters.

I have been lucky so far that certain people have helped verify fish prior to purchase so I am happy with what I have. But I will always bow to more experienced fish keepers.

I do this just like you. There is no economy in the scale I keep fish...esp in NZ so I do it for the love.

There will always be people who do it for the $$ and it is up to us to rise above that. I hope you will be there when I try. lol

Nav

[phoenix44]

But I am only as good as the person I brought my fish from in the first place.

Nav

never has a truer word been spoken, lol... :bounce:

[David R]

^ rubbish.

I think anyone can and should try to identify the fish they are keeping, regardless of what they have been sold them as. I know it is a lot harder with rift lake cichlids as a lot of the time you are dealing with Spp. and type localities, and the fact that a lot of people aren't 100% on how the Latin nomenclature works just adds to the confusion. (I should really write a short article on it, given that I deal with it every day and my boss is very knowledgeable about it).

IMO, if in doubt, be honest. If you're not sure that they are Aulonocara sp Rubens Firebird then you could always sell them as "Aulonocara Sp." or "A. Sp. (possibly Rubens Firebird?)" just to be on the safe side. That is certainly better than guessing/hoping/assuming the name is correct.

[new zealand discus man]

Hi

To MAF New list..I was the one that did all the south american fish and no one else that i know if put up any other spec list..

Thats why the list now legally is so restrictive..

Also i understood hobbist were going to put forward lists via fnzas..

Did that ever happen..????

My list was accepted by maf because i found that erma had said one date and maf reversed it so any i imported years ago could be included..I eveb had to have a J P wittness my signing..Then maf had no legal choice but to add them all as inported before..Study the list posted and see all now have two names,not nessary to be latin either..

Also i understood maf had a list of what was known to be in nz..

That was never added to the new list..

To breeding...I state yes..I breed as money making..Yes i state i use the best know breeders i can procure..

Also i keep all types in seperate tanks..Even discus breeders are seperated into own spec tanks...

But if you want the maf list to be increased then fnzas is the place to start up getting the spec list updated and to include all types....

Unless you push the govt hard there might well be no imports as thats what i beieve maf want...........Back to firebird where this all started..

As i said ill let ya know later...........Phill

[firenzenz]

good post Phil

If your 'firebirds" were to breed true, and it turns out that they are Red Rubins, would you then consider ommiting an incorrect common name.

I note there are another couple of threads that are discussing very similar

issues.

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/apisto ... 33352.html.

I'm not saying people are purpoely trying to deceive, but when people who

procure fish from a source once removed from importers/recognised breeder and put it upon themselves to decide the merits of that fish later down the line is a dubiuos practice for even those who have been dealing with this family of fish for years and know their tendancies.

It would seem that using the internet alone for ID is fraught for disaster.

Personally, I would flag my $60.00 bucks and breed ' unknown pecock"

and look to sell for a similar price, but I have bonafide A. sp. Rubescens

so thankfully a decision that I don't need to make

And for those who think that IDing down the track when they colour up is a solution, then ID these three, using the net or however you want.

[new zealand discus man]

Hi

The photo you put first is very simular to the one he used..Maybe a bit more blue in body..

Problem we all have is once imported and if mixed up later then yes you will get x just like other photos..

The reason why i got them was because its not easy to get reds or oranges here..But remember i did see tha male and as said was definately reddish orange..So going on that i got 20..All doing very will and are 35mm..Not pushing food to hard to ensure gut dont play up..

All mine have been treated for internal and external bug and worms..So no scratching or white dropping that i recon is heximata tha same as discus get ..They call it malawi bloat..

I have have none die so i cannot look inside to confirm..

But yes ......We will all have more discussion later when i see colours..

All views will be sort.........I did win an auction of alex' s for reb.......But he lost the male..Now waiting on his malarie reds....Ordered them to to grow on.........Cheers Phill

[new zealand discus man]

Thats the photo that was used..My memory was around this colour.....Phill

[new zealand discus man]

Hi

Above photo has been confirmed as good likeness..Phill

[firenzenz]

Only problem is Phil that that phoito is off the internet not the fish for auction. Yes it it looks like a nice rubescens.

Pity the title on the auction is for "Baenschi"

In fact he is 95% certain of that as stated.

What name will you use?

The shot of mine is about 8mths old and fish coloured up well since.

As for the other fish images I posted earlier, none of them are crosses.

They are young Maleri, Baenschi and Jacobfriebergi.

Once again- thanks for helping me reinforce the point.

[new zealand discus man]

Hi

The name mostly will be just Rub......But firebird i did find some where..Have to hunt again..Has a nice ring to it..So...Maybe...

Rubescens Firebird..Covers both points...To young fish photo's ..yes just about imposible to name till fully coloured then still not easy as photo's tent to have light differences giving different looks...ie red /pink over head tubes........Growlux ...........Phill

[Tropheus]

Yeah Rub sounds cool. Or lets call them RubenJake, or JakeRed or whatever we bloody hell want. Christ if i could express my true feelings i would be kicked off this forum. Phil, Here's an idea! If you are so intent in making the big bucks why not take your time and make a effort to purchase good genuine stock and breed from them, instead of rushing and purchasing anything. Not only will this help and keep what we have as close to clean stock in NZ but also make a good name for yourself as a breeder ie OOA, Johannes, Manie etc

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: : :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Johannes Visser]

8)

[firenzenz]

And here I thought I was going crazy...

Congrats Tropheus.

[lmsmith]

Wow....so the fish in the auction could be any one of 3 different fish, all from different places but with the same common name in New Zealand?

The fact that all 3 of those pics look the same to me tells me that I shouldn't be buying any of them!

[new zealand discus man]

http://www.deanpike.com/images/Dean%20P ... isting.pdf

The name is what they are here and now..Importer would have gone by this confirmed name and above is the link..

Aulonocara Jacobfreibergi Firebird Peacocks

You might not like it ..But t/me seller did not just invent it..

Also i just saw the Rubescens is just line breed from Aulonocara Stuartgranti Maleri

And as to running around buying anything..None of you would have a clue of whats here..Why..I have to listed them anywhere..But trust this..i do know what im doing when it comes to fish,After all i have been breeding /importing longer than most of you have lived..

[Tropheus]

Well i guess my twenty odd years with fish has just been a waste of time compared to you Phil.

If you are a Importer why not source genuine stock from overseas instead of purchasing rubbish off TM.

Christ if I had my importers license I would be the first to make sure NZ has good quilty stock. But I guess thats not the way to go in your view. Iam sure theirs heaps of people out there that would pay for quality.

[Tiden]

BURN :lol: :lol:

[firenzenz]

Are you saying Phil that you still have an Import/Quarantine License.

Please confirm.

If you don't , then what exactly would someone be buying in terms of your business

Phil you have beeen breeding for many years.

You started at a time when fish keeping was nothing that is today, and peoples expectations were quite different.

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/names- ... tml#365191

I understand you may not recall this thread( drams and all), but I do.

It is obvious from your threads there you are not an authority on African fish, and that stepping into a discussion about them with Tropheus who I know does, shows what you are an authority on.

B***S***

As for Discus, perhaps Chin and the like could make comment.

This thread started with a querie about the source and type of fish in an Auction, you have done nothing to provide a solution other than admitting you are part of the problem.

[Dixon1990]

BURN :lol: :lol:

8) :lol:

[ryanjury]

Nz discus man, you seem to have taken none of the examples on that were posted here? You can google around and find firebird associated with any of the peacocks that link you posted does not prove they are jacobs it only proves that you haven't read any of this and just can't seem to take anything on board? Anyone can make up a common name they mean absolutely nothing at all..

Now you're saying that you have jacob's but you brought them as baenshi and they were most likely imported as rubins? What a mess you have now and im sure you will happily sell them on as whatever you want maybe "baenshi super firebird jacob's" doesn't that sound fancy? I'm sure you will make lots of money.. I have brought fish similar to the ones you have brought with dodgy id's and grown them out for a year on the best food in their own tank etc etc lots of time and money only to still not know what they were and have to kill all the females and basically give all the males away as hybrids.. I lost alot of time/money and tied up a tank I could have used for something else but it was the right thing to do. Do you have the ability to do this?

It is well known and has been posted on here that Rubin's are maleri's that are line bred for more red that still doesn't make them jacob's (which you have just posted as your definite id above) or baenshi though? And no that doesn't mean we should go and breed them willy nilly with our maleri's red's/golds even though im sure you will. They probably originated from different places in the lakes and we don't know where so best to keep them pure.

And yes you may have owned a goldfish farm and bred discus and imported a few randomly named appisto's but that does not mean that you automatically know what to do with africans because you very obviously don't. You have been called out before for doing and suggesting dodgy things just crossing various appisto's that you imported under different names because they are basically the same anyway.. Also from one of your previous posts you say that female peacocks are different thats cool I have noticed some differences are you experienced enough to id these female peacocks?

It’s all well and good to breed whatever you like to make some money and you have every right to do it but to call yourself the best in nz etc is laughable.. It is just a shame because there are many of us out there breeding the best that we can and trying to get descent stock out there in nz and educate people and people like you drag it all down And most of us out there don't make anything trying to breed fish just do it for the love of the hobby and to try and make things better so everyone can enjoy these beautiful fish.

[new zealand discus man]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =177626471

This what i purchaesd them under..Unlikely anyone else here has actually seen them..

If you dont like the name then..Tough...This posts is about the name only..But seaming some want to throw c--p..

I have been importing and breeding before the 20 + of goldfish farm for just on 15 years..Now again im breeding all sorts and have been for 5 years since selling out...I have breed just about all family i can thing of..

I have never claimed to be a malawi expert..Not in my words..

Tough again if i sell fish to make a profit..

Those that have been here know you dont get a property and house like mine by just sitting around..

See johannes and see what i just collected today..He's happy to have me buy..But some are removing them self's from my xmas list....

To my business..Its listed with photo's and what you see if what you get..

To import licence..NO..........I stopped over two years ago when maf got all stupid on costs..

Back to importing quality stocks.......Again go back a read the permitted list i posted...ITS Not Legal to Import whats not on the list..

Its to not legal to just import fish that cannot be id'ed on arrival..Maf have the power to destroy all fish and cancel a licence.Or take samples of every fish .Send to lab and you get the bill and if not correct fish then..............Zip fish...

Also i will not be wasting any more time here because the fact is you might be hobby people but with out business's you would have no hobby..

I have 124 tanks with an average of 250 L full of many types of tropicals and many im the only breeder that has them..

Back to later id'ing them i now intent to use my oversea's contacts and feel that no mater what i put here many are just going to keep the arguement going..Back to fish id's

I trust experts oversea's a lot more than here and even the web have many expert views...............I dont make up facts about what i post just copy expert views..Yes.......Not all experts are right 100%.......But ill go with there views............Phill

[David R]

It seems to me that half the problem here is caused by people not using proper Latin nomenclature and trying to abbreviate it to the point where its as useless as common names.

I'm not an authority on African cichlids so I'm not sure if "Reubans" "Firebirds" "Jacobs" etc are actually referring to species, subspecies, line-bred and named varieties or what! For the sake of everybody (and my sanity) here's what people should be doing:

For a scientifically described naturally occurring species (and subspecies);

Genus species subspecies. Capital letter for the Genus, lower case for species and subspecies. Genus can be abbreviated to G. if it is being repeated.

For a named (line bred) variety or type-locality etc;

Genus species Firebird. The name given to the variety must not be Latin-ised and receives a capital letter.

For a named hybrid between two species of the same Genus:

Genus 'Firebird'. Again, the given name must not be Latin-ised, receives capital letters, is written in single quotation marks and can only be two words long. An inter-generic hybrid receives a genus name comprised of the first half of one parent and the second half of the other (can't remember weather mother or father comes first).

If people actually stuck to this perhaps the issue wouldn't be so confusing.

And for the sake of my curiosity could Andrew or Ryan clear up what exactly a "firebird" "reubans" and "jacobs" should be??

[Johannes Visser]

Protomelas Taeniolatus (Red Empress) are not peacock !!

I dont see what this sale has to do with this post :evil: We have alway kept our fish pure ! Culled the ones we eventulay found to be hybrids (CHILUNBAS) I am sure there are other on here that can confirm this

All we can hope for is that these fish are kept and bred pure as well as called what they are !

[new zealand discus man]

Hi

I did not name today any types of fish..Just a point that you are happy to sell me fish that when i buy i have trust in you as the supplier...But further back your name was put and not by me....Phill

[firenzenz]

David Hi

The genus for all the fish we're discussing is Aulonocara

Jacobfriebergi, Baenschi, Maleri, Hansbaenschi are all seperate species

amongst the many peacocks there are.

Within these species are locational variants and thats where the common name tends to come in.

This is also the case for line bred fish( a single species bred to enhance an attribute, usually colour), which dont exist in the lake. These fish aren't Hybrids though.

Alulonocara Rubescens is a man made deritive of Aulonocara Maleri, through line breeding a deeper reddish colour and more compacted body shape. Named after Peter Rubin who developed the line in germany.

There is even a "German Red' which is even more specific as it was developed from a single locational variant.

The common names serve the purpose as a locational marker in some cases, but are often used as a marketing tool.

A 'lemon Jake' is variant of Jacobfreibergi so all lemon jake should be Jacobfreibergi but all all Jacobfreibergi aren't lemon Jake.

'Eureka' is a line bred Jacobfreibergi for the same reasons as Rubins.

Confusing- wait until you get into all the different Stuartgranti variants.

If you were to google "Firebird" a lions share of the hit would show Aulonocara Hansbaenschi, not rubescens.

This is one of the better web resources for These fish.

http://www.cichlidforum.com/profiles/re ... p?genus=17

Phil obviusly chose not to show this auction. Same dealer, same fish, same photo. The reason obvious when you read.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pe ... 151159.htm

This isn't just a case with Malawi's, and is more wide spread than should be and it is importers and retailers here that in my opinion are totally misreading the potential for what will be a growing market.

Eg. I like Uaru's but they aren't that popular to mainstream. HFF has had adults named Uaru's sitting in a tank for a while.

So what do they do when they got in babies. Called them "Triangle cichlids". Same fish ten feet away but different name- Marketing!

As for Phill-

Thank christ for us he doesn't breed dogs. Imagine the Child killers he would unleash on us, all so he could tell us how great he thinks his house. What a joke. What a pity thats the best justification he can use to support a dying philosphy.

As for the House. I've been there, obviously I know mine, and it's always a pleasure to visit Tropheus. Guess who comes third.

I guess that's what happens when quality becomes your pursuit and your aim is to look past the reach of your own hand.

That is a personality trait that has nothing to do with age.

Footnote.

Phil is auctioning "yellow sailfin pleco's". I don't know to what success.

But if he got of his ass and did the homework I bet there would be a market For Hypostomus Hemicochlidon

Phil would recognise the location of this fish I know but he's not reading this anymore cause the cots empty.

So I guess I shouldn't expect to see the name change on the auction eh!

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... es_id=1325