(Not so) New Addative

[lduncan]

Well, after no bites on the "well lets see some real reef tanks" thread. Here is a bit of background to the new mystery addative i'm using.

It all came about from two separate articles i read. The first by Randy Holmes Farley, which was about the details of the calcification process. In it he mentions the role of organics in the process, he goes on to say that amino acids "may bind to the aragonite crystal face (skeleton), and thereby inhibit binding of magnesium, phosphate, or other ions that are known to inhibit the growth of calcium carbonate crystals."

He goes on to say...

"Interestingly, the apparently large need for a particular amino acid (aspartic acid) to synthesize these proteins is satisfied by external sources, not by either the coral itself or the zooxanthellae. For this reason, it might be interesting to see what added aspartic acid does to calcification rates in reef tanks."

The second article was about feeding corals, in particular phyoplankton, and zooplankton. It basically listed that amino acids are the primary nutrient used by corals from these types of food.

I also remember reading that particular bacteria are capable of using amino acids directly.

Now, i have been dosing Saliferts Coralline Amino Acids for the past week, 5 mL per day. Habib on reefcentral has stated that the product contains 40% aspartic acid, with a mixture of other amino acids.

So far the results have been similar to those experienced when starting to use Zeovit. The water has become noticably clearer, and polyp extension is much greater. Unlike zeovit however, i have had no increase in hair algae, nor any recession at the base of any of my acros.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.

Layton

[jetskisteve]

of course its made by Salifert!!!!!!!!!!! also i dont get hair algea or recession.

[lduncan]

I know what your thinking Steve, and no... it wasn't purchased from Auckland. And i was considering purchasing plain old aspartic acid, but it's not cheap, and a bit of research on reefcentral on aspartic acid, came up with a couple of threads on this product, in which habib explained what research when into the creation of the product.

Much more scientific and professional than Zeovit and the like.

Layton

[jetskisteve]

well all i can say is keep us posted, a week isnt a fair indication as i used to get those same results by adding a bag of high qual carbon in my sump.

[lduncan]

Yeah, i know, but just thought i'd let everyone know of the initial changes.

Layton

[ZEOvitANZ]

Once again layton, maybe your zeovit supplier wouldn't have a clue what he is talking about. No one else who uses zeovit seems to have the same problems you have. Maybe it is because you keep changing your tank around.

You have never asked me about your problems with the zeovit and i am the official supplier of zeovit in NZ/Aussie. that to me is very strange. Does your supplier help you out with the problems ? Or does he recommend changing every parameter in your tank every second day ?

You won't have much success with this method, you have to be patient in this hobby !

Brendan

[lduncan]

Ahh, interesting to see who crawls out of the wood work when you mention zeovit. How about sticking around a bit on these forums Brendan and posting something unrelated to zeovit for a change.

What do you mean by keep changing my tank around? What have I changed? The only thing i recall was dropping my alk to about 7 a couple of weeks before starting zeovit because high alk was apparently known to cause RTN when using zeovit!

No one else who uses zeovit seems to have the same problems you have? ... I seem to remeber Pies also had some problems initially.

Another coral death. I have 2 pieces of an green plating Acropora frags. It has been fine growing and encrusting well, today 1 of the 2 frags is 90% bleeched or RTNd, hard to tell. The other frag looks fine. This coral was fine yesterday, and this has only happened today, perhapps even since 5pm today! So yes it does sound like RTN based on the speed of the damage.

I am a little concerned. Why? Well in the past 12 monts the only coral I have lost is an Elegance coral (common death read Boruneman). This coral has been doing well and for a difficult to keep coral I have been very happy with its progress. Since the introduction of Zeovit I have lost 2 corals. I have made a decision that if a 3rd dies, I am doing water changes and dumping the product, aalling it a complete 'disaster' and writing it off. So far I am less than impressed.

I'm not saying it's related to using zeovit, but it could possibly be.

The main problem I have with zeovit is that no one knows how it works, or the creator, if indeed he does know how it works, is unwilling to inform hobbyists of this information.

You could argue that he would be giving away his secrets if he told everone how it worked, but the fact is, is that if another company wanted to copy this product, it would not be particularly difficult to get each component of the system chemicallly / biologically analysed to determine it's constituants.

I believe that the zeolite addes nothing to the system. The same could be acieved by similar sized live rock in a reansonable flow environment.. perhaps even work better.

Zeofood, I believe is a mixture of amino acids, similar to what I am using, in the form of the salifert product. This I think is the key part to the system, i have read a few proper scientific research papers to support the theory that particular anino acids aids growth and possible colouration.

Zeobak... well it may or may not aleady exist in the tank, who knows? No one knows what bacteria it is! Amino acids can be used directly by some bacteria. So zeobak may not help either.

Zeostart, wouldn't have the slightest clue as to what is in this, may be just another cocktail of amino acids, maybe some acetate's which would explain the vinigar like smell.

All in all, at the sart of using just an amino acid addative which has reasonably sound research behind it, and it's creator is willing to share information on it's major components, i have had similar effects as those reported by many people who use zeovit.

Personally after seeing the effects of this product on my tank, I'm inclined to think that the only real active ingredient in the zeovit system is the Zeofood, which is nothing more than a mixture of amino acids!

What would you trust, a product which you know what is in it which has sound scientific research behind it, or a overly hyped system, which no one really knows how it works or what it actually is.

[ZEOvitANZ]

And thats exactly the reason why i don't " stick around " and post unrelated replies !

[lduncan]

Because you have no response? :roll:

[Pies]

I am loathe to get invloved in this debate, but I thought I would share some observations and thoughts, in no particular order:

I did have 2 coral deaths when I started to use Zeovit, which I belive (but can't prove) was related to the addition of the Zeovit product.

I will be using Zeovit in my new tank.

My tank corals, particulary acropora responded very well to the Zeovit. I had coral grow after addition of Zeovit that never did anything in its absense.

When I stopped using Zeovit, my corals returned to a dark colour and stoped growing as fast.

My skimmer pulled out more gunk, my water was clearer (1 makes the other happen?).

I have found Brendon to be very friendly and helpfull. He has invited me into his home, shared some of his experance and thoughts and has given me some good ideas and reading material.

If you compare the coral in Brendons tank, to other tanks (Alois's or mine for example) there is no comparison. Brendons corals looked fantastic, and although Brendon told me they normally look a lot better (he had just changed tanks) I was truely impressed.

Lots of people here have used Zeovit incorrectly (Layton, Alois - others?).

I find it disconcerting that Zeovit doesn't tell you about the contents of its product and it is surrounded by some 'black magic'.

Zeovit does work, and the results are stunning. This doesn't mean that other things work just as well (rowaphos, hormones, acids).

Just some stuff.

Pies

[reef]

Is it no nice when people hijack your forum?? Wish they would not if they can't add any value.

Zeovit is another method to reduce Nitrate/phosphates. which is great., however more hobbyist like to understand what is in the product and object to people claiming that this is the only method that will colour up acropora.

The contents of zeovit are basically different acids, which is utilized by the bacteria in the zeolite.

Lots of the success of zeovit is also the fact that you have to do weekly water changes and recommend that you use carbon. This method alone will improve colour of corals by reducing organics.

Zeovit is not a new system , Chris Eckoff and I used it two years ago, however found adding the product daily not feasible and for large tanks it is very expensive.

The market for these products is so small in NZ for the 6 people that keep acropora. Using it for soft corals has no benefit as soft coral and LPS do well with a few nutrients.

Aqua light make a product called zeobio bac which is the similar but different formula of acids, however they have taken it to the next step and the product can be dosed daily via a dosing pump.

Aqualight don’t really market their product as there is no money in it, unlike the zeovit people who do quite a lot of marketing .

Of the 4 or so people that use it in NZ I have not seen any great success as already there tanks had very low in nutrients due to good skimming and lighting.

Sure people that use zeovit get nice colours, but so do other tanks that don’t use it; the secret is getting nitrate and phosphates down to zero and having very good lighting.

I am sure Brendan had great colours in his acropora, but it depends what you are into as to me a tank with a few fish is boring and I prefer a variety of coral which is a detriment to some of my acropora colours .

Its great to see all the new guys like Mark learning and sharing their ideas so hobbyists don’t do the same mistakes, but as they say there is more that one way to skin a cat.

[chimera]

Finally some valuable information posted - rather than just bitching at each other!

[lduncan]

If you compare the coral in Brendons tank, to other tanks (Alois's or mine for example) there is no comparison. Brendons corals looked fantastic, and although Brendon told me they normally look a lot better (he had just changed tanks) I was truely impressed.

What is in his tank? Low fish load could account for this. This is the thing which annoys me a bit about Brendon posting on this forum. He only appears when zeovit is mentioned. There could be a multitude of other reasons why his corals look good.

Lots of people here have used Zeovit incorrectly (Layton, Alois - others?).

According to whose instructions? The creators? Brendons? G Alexander's?

Zeovit does work, and the results are stunning.

There is no doubt about this. I know it works, but which particular part makes it work?

I doubt that the zeolite and zeobak contribute at all.

The zeolite? Don't think so. Zeolite is nothing more than a surface. Like rock has more biologically available surface area than zeolites for the same volume. The largest of the three zeolites tested from the zeovit system had a 4 angstrom pore size. The smallest bacteria are around 200nm in size, that is three orders of magnitude larger than the largest pore size of zeolites! There is no bacteria hosted within the zeolite!

Zeloite as a ion exchange filter in binding nitrate and phosphate is also not true. The high levels of Sodium ions, effectively renders what is a useful freshwater chemical filter useless in saltwater.

Zeobak, i have asked several people in the know about this, Eric Borneman states that no one has been able to pin down the species of bacteria which is responsible for reducing nitrate in marine aquariums. If zeovit have found the answer, i think it is rather irresponsible not to share it with the scientific community.

From the research papers I have read, the zeovit system achieves results similar to those of dosing amino acids, so much so that I think that they are essentially one in the same.

My aim is not to promote a product (unlike Brendon) i have no commercial interest in salifert at all. Hell, i wouldn't even be using the salifert product if I didn't know that it contained 40% aspartic acid. My aim is to share information which may help other hobbyists better their tanks.

Layton

[reef]

Well-said Layton.

I can get more info from Aqualight, as they understand how it works and don’t have any problem sharing information,

But what I understand is that some atom attaches itself to the zeolite, this might happen as zeolite has iron in it.

Actually I will get you his email address and he can explain it to you.

[Nicks]

Good Thread

its good that we are willing to experiment with different systems as that is the basis of this hobby, One size does not fit all.

I am happy with zeovit, as I am happy with a good deltec skimmer, low fish stock and NSW.

I think the main thing is low nutrients and and a stable environment, my tank looks best when I leave it alone.

How you achieve the low nutrients is the best thing about this hobby as with the reef technology around today you can do that in all manner of ways, some in vogue and some not.

I saw an amazing reef in the UK it is the TOTM on Ulimatereef. Stunning in size, coral colours and number of fish (pan size) in 17000ltr.

Run on a Very Big Deltec Skimmer, Rowaphos and Shuran Calcium Reactor, 14 x 400w halides!!!and Kalkwasser. Regular water changes but as a % of total volume not much.

Really a good basic tank management although on a large scale produced a truly stunning tank.

If you have a system that works keep it.

ps. My daughter has decided to drop her afternoon sleep so I do not get as much time to Suft reef site of late. So if anyone in Auckland wants to have a Reef Meet at there place even a frag swapping session???????

Let Me Know

Nick Sparks

4739474

[lduncan]

This method of dosing aspartic acid is more about feeding corals rather than lowering nutrients.

An added side effect of it is that it may boost certain benificial bacteria, resulting in a lowering of nutrients.

Layton

[Pies]

Layton - http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewto ... c&start=15

That is the thread where it was pointed out to you that you were using Zeovit incorrectly. Brendon was offering to help you.

Zeovit, Sugar, vodka, draino, Acids... Whats next? (miracle mud, Eco Aqualiser)

I feel quite bad for Brendon, everytime he opens his mouth he gets slamed. His tank looks stunning (or did look stunning last time I was there) and hes such a nice guy, not sure why you guys are so hard on him.

Pie

[lduncan]

Yes, you pointed it out, but according to the instructions I got from several sources, including http://www.korallen-zucht.de, that is the way it is used. The way Brendon uses it is different, and the way G Alexander uses it is different again!

vodka? Never used it.

I used sugar, and had good results with it. But if this amino acid mixture can produce similar results while feeding corals, all the better.

Draino (sodium hydroxide) is no more harmful to your tank than dosing kalk. It's only used to kill aiptasia, and haven't used to for several months, cause I have none left to kill.

Acids... this is a very broad category. Hydroflouric acid is a bit different to amino acids... really.

BTW Zeovit contains acid as well. This is the one thing that they do tell you.

Eco Aqualiser is rubbish has no valid logical reason behind it. It's like a biomag for your tank... nothing but the placebo effect here!

No one else who uses zeovit seems to have the same problems you have. Maybe it is because you keep changing your tank around.

Its crap like this that will get the response it deserves from me. Two complete lies in a row.

Brendon might gain some more credibility with me by posting information which will help people with general reef related question rather than get all defensive over a product which he is trying promote.

Again, I believe parts of the zeovit system work. But as a complete system, there are components which are nothing but snake oils.

Layton

[Pies]

Eco Aqualiser is rubbish has no valid logical reason behind it. It's like a biomag for your tank... nothing but the placebo effect here!

Its interesting because most people who use the Eco aqualiser claim it increases their Redox. Infact the tank that NickS spoke about that he visited (7000litre from UR) runs one on his tank (its massive) and he claims that it had given him all the results it claims too.

Its also a product that is backed up by a lot of science, published information everywhere.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it can't work (or can't work for you). Maybee if Alois starts selling them you'll buy one.

Pies

[lduncan]

I understand an eco aqualiser as essentially a pipe with a magnetic field around it.

It apparently achieves similar results as ozone, in that from what they explain, it ionizes O2 molecues in the water to produce O3. Along with breaking h-bonds between water molecules which trap nutriets.

The way they describe it, the difference between the eco aqualiser and a uv steraliser is the same as the difference between a coronal discharge ozone generator, and a uv bulb ozone generator. Two different methods achieve the same result.

I don't believe ozone is benificial for a reef tank. And I would never use it. I would however consider it for a fish only tank.

There are a couple of problems i have with their theory. First, the magnetic field required to achieve the energies required to break h-bonds (about 40kJ/mol) would exceed the capability of any permanent magnet, even rear earth magnets (around 1 Tesla). In addition to this, only high frequency alternating magnetic or electric fields are known to cause ionisation.

Also the explaination itself is dubious at best. Water is a small molecule, relative to the organic molecules it is claimed to trap. This means that a large number of water molecules would have to be involved in trapping these other molecules. Which means more polar bonds to break, probably in a three dimensional lattice structure. Meaning even more energy is require to split it.

I do agree however that if these h-bonds make the trapped molecule less "skimmable". This is because a hydrogen bond makes a polar molecule less polar.

All this points to a prouct which may have the best intentions, but I believe can not work, not by theory, but rather by design.

[chimera]

Would everyone shut the hell up! Here's the simple facts for ANYTHING you do:

- if it works on your tank, use it.

- if it doesn't, read the instructions.

- if you are following the instructions and it still doesnt work, dont use it.

Now to something funny, whats the STUPIDEST thing you've done on your tank? For your amusement...

Well, I was pulling piping off to make way for a larger Iwaki tonight and ended up in A&E 10 minutes later. Heres lesson #1 when removing piping:

Do NOT yank the piping downwards when there's a glass fish tank near your head:

or you will end up with a 4inch cut in your head with large bruise and look like this:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Ira]

OMG, you musta done more than just hit your head on a tank to mess your face up that much!

hehe, Just kidding.

[chimera]

yeah, had to put the stupid face on coz it was a bloody stupid (but in hindsight funny) thing to do! hurt like hell though. very very close to passing out!

[lduncan]

Would everyone shut the hell up! Here's the simple facts for ANYTHING you do:

- if it works on your tank, use it.

- if it doesn't, read the instructions.

- if you are following the instructions and it still doesnt work, dont use it.

I don't think things are really quite this simple. I think you should have as full an understanding of what you are doing to your tank as possible. This way you are in a better position to determine whether something you are going to do is going to be for the long term benifit of your tank. Or if it may have any side effects.

It really is all about sharing information. If it doesn't interest you fine, but I found it interesting and thought that others might too. Maybe it gives some furthur insight into how zeovit may work... or would Brendon be as helpful as to explain how it works in detail (not how to use it)?

Here are some links for anyone interested:

Randy's Article on calcification which promted my inital investigations:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm

Another article which mentions aspartic acid in passing:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/media.htm

A paper which is referenced by the two previous articles:

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/201/13/2001?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&titleabstract=pistillata&searchid=1020695985689_585&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&journalcode=jexbio

In emailing Randy on this topic he mentioned that he is going to put togeather an article on the roles effects of various amino acids on corals.

Layton

[chimera]

Everyone appears to have had difference experiences with Zeovit. Some good, some moderate, some bad and some even mixed experiences (eg: crap at first then got better)

My point is that everyone is bitching at each other about good/bad or otherwise. You are all basing this on your own opinions about the product. Just because another guy says it did wonders on his tank, who said it was the Zeovit? Perhaps they're paying him!

So, all I want to stress is that no one should say "it works" or "its crap". If others are opposed to your view, then obviously they are getting different results.

The magical zeovit debate will come back to haunt you all in another few months, guaranteed. Why? Because "is seems that" NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE. Not even the experts.