Chimeras Tank Build (Sump room, new tank etc)

[Brianemone]

how do you lower alk and Kh?? water changes?

[wasp]

Depends how you are dosing at the moment. But if a person is using a calcium reactor or kalkawasser, both of which add ca and alk in balanced proportions, the way to reduce alk would be to add some calcium only, in a form such as calcium chloride. Seachems Reef Calcium is calcium chloride. Then both calcium and alkalinity can be allowed to drop, until calcium is back at the correct level, and alk is at a lower level.

[Brianemone]

so it can only be lowered by time? its not that you add something to make it happen

[wasp]

Yes correct, kinda

Both calcium and alkalinity will slowly drop over time, and both need constant replacing.

Alkalinity cannot be actually removed as such, other than by allowing normal processes to slowly lower it, this is the slow precipitation that will always be happening.

Both alkalinity and calcium will precipitate each other out in balanced proportions, so adding a bit extra calcium will allow the alkalinity to go to a lower level relative to calcium. We would then resume balanced dosing of both with kalkawasser, or a calcium reactor, to maintain them both at the new levels.

But if someone is dosing them via a 2 part mix, one of calcium and one of alkalinity, they would simply dose more or less of one, if they wished to adjust the balance.

In a zeovit system, stability is important as there is less of a nutrient "safety net", so a calcium reactor is recommended to achieve steady dosing.

[chimera]

More likely Acropora millopora.

yes, it's a milli. and no brian, you can't have a frag because its so small it can't even BE fragged!!! when it grows big enough I'll send you a frag though.

I will stop dosing kalkwasser with my topup. that should lower alk a bit in time.

[lduncan]

so it can only be lowered by time? its not that you add something to make it happen

A mineral acid or base would do it. But not something you want to add to your tank in significant quantity. Time is the best way.

Interesting about why people generally keep alk high, i think it was Eric, who said that it was to try and keep the Redfield Ratio (ratio of Carbon to Phosphorous to Nitrogen) more desirable in higher nutrients tanks. Low nutrients (in N and P) tanks should have normal reef levels.

Layton

[wasp]

Stopping dosing kalk will allow the alk to fall, but also the calcium will fall too. You would stop dosing kalk but add some calcium to maintain calcium at the same level. Once alk was down to where you want it, and calcium was where you want it, you would resume dosing kalk, to keep them both at those levels.

[lduncan]

Chimera look for zone 3:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

[wasp]

The article Layton referenced is excellent. Just Randy measures alkalinity in Mg/L, which you would multiply by 2.8 to convert to dkh.

Bit like celcius and farenheight.

[Brianemone]

didnt want a frag of yours, i wanted a frag bigger than yours

[chimera]

Stopping dosing kalk will allow the alk to fall, but also the calcium will fall too. You would stop dosing kalk but add some calcium to maintain calcium at the same level. Once alk was down to where you want it, and calcium was where you want it, you would resume dosing kalk, to keep them both at those levels.

I run a calcium reactor 24x7 so that will keep Ca levels up anyway.

didnt want a frag of yours, i wanted a frag bigger than yours

don't we all.

[Ira]

I run a calcium reactor 24x7 so that will keep Ca levels up anyway.

But will also keep the KH up.

[chimera]

well it's better having a decent Ca to allow the coral to grow than not

[Pies]

Unless it raises you KH too high and all your acros RTN because of the effects of high KH with Zeovit systems...

Pie

[lduncan]

well it's better having a decent Ca to allow the coral to grow than not

Calcium is generally not the limiting factor in coral growth when it is above 350ppm. Carbon (alkalinity) is a significant driving factor in growth.

Layton

[wasp]

As Ira intimated, the ca reactor will dose calcium and alkalinty in balanced proportion, same as kalkawasser does.

So if you keep calcium up with the reactor, you will also be adding alkalinity, the levels of each will rise or fall together.

To lower one relative to the other, you would add the opposite one seperately. IE, to lower alkalinty relative to calcium, you would add some calcium.

As Layton correctly stated, alkalinity is a driving force for growth of hard corals. NSW has a dkh around 7, so this is what corals are designed for, along with a low nutrient environement. The reason is not 100% understood, but the theory is, that in the average aquarium, with a higher than NSW nutrient level, we can get away with a higher alkalinity level, in fact, this can even encourage growth.

But reduce nutrient levels down to NSW levels, as is the aim in a zeovit tank, if the alkalinty is higher than anything that would occur in nature, the whole thing will be out of whack, and the coral cannot cope and may TN.

So when beginning on zeovit it may be possible to keep a high alkalinity. But as nutrient levels come down over a few weeks or months, the likelyhood of TN increases if alkalinity is not reduced to near NSW levels. The comments on the Zeovit board would indicate that TN is all but inevitable sooner or later, if alkalinity is not reduced to 7-8.

So far in my own tank, due to my own ignorance / laziness, since going zeovit I've had a dkh ranging from as low as 5 1/2, to 11. Fate was smiling and I've been lucky and got away with it on those occasions with no loses. But now I've got a nice ca reactor and can keep levels solid, much better.

[lduncan]

Personally I don't think alkalinity is the primary driver of the TN. It's the addition of a nutrient .

[wasp]

Fascinating theory Layton.

However the fact is that in a zeovit tank alkalinity should be kept at 7-8.

This is irrespective of your special "it adds a nutrient" fixation.

[lduncan]

Been there done that. Remember the spate of issues related to iron phosphate removers on RC? Remember how they fixed the issues. Remember the iron threads here. Not gonna start that up again here in Chimera's thread though.

I'm not disagreeing with the alk thing.

[wasp]

Not gonna start that up again here in Chimera's thread though.

Strange, you just did!

[lduncan]

Another thing Layton, All the energy you put into arguing about zeovit on various forums around the world, if you put 1/2 that much effort into actually running a zeovit tank, and doing it PROPERLY, you would likely be very pleased with the result, and be a much more happy chappy!

I'm too dumb to run zeovit. I'll leave it at that.

[wasp]

Another thing Layton, All the energy you put into arguing about zeovit on various forums around the world, if you put 1/2 that much effort into actually running a zeovit tank, and doing it PROPERLY, you would likely be very pleased with the result, and be a much more happy chappy!

[wasp]

I'll leave it at that.

I would doubt that!

[Pies]

Who will get the last word in? Cause you know, whoever gets the last word in wins...

I am not sure about all this anyway. I would thank the reason we (as per Bournemans reccomedation) want higer alk then nsw is to control PH shift. PH in NSW doesn't shift overnight in the ocean like it does in an aquirum.

That is something else to consider with Zeovit system. Chimera (I assume) was adding kalk, which is adding CA and ALK, thus buffering PH. Also the addition of kalk at night (because its high PH) helps take the dip out of PH fluctuation. Without the addition of kalk at night or high ALK, there are few ways (reverse lighting is one) to stop huge peeks and troughs with PH. So regardless of the state of the CA and ALK, fluctuating PH is BAD and measures should be taken to avoid it.

At least that from my experance and from my limited understanding of the way of things.

Pie

[Ira]

Sometimes I think arguing in this forum is like running in the special olympics...