Chimeras Tank Build (Sump room, new tank etc)

[chimera]

not quite with ya joeblog,... can you rephrase?

[Fay]

All sounds great, looking forward to more pics been there done that with the house, alot of hard work but well worth it in the end

[JoeBlog]

Sorry for the confusion.

From what I can tell in your diagram, 1 of the 4 outlets from the 4-way is going to a spray bar (presumably, under your reef rack).

IMHO, I just think that this may be a bit of a waste for one of the returns from the 4-way. I would have a Y (or T) connect right after the AM3000 outlet (just as you do for the two inlets into the AM3000) to split off the output flow to the spray bar directly and to the OM 4-way. I would replace the 4th outlet on the 4-way (which used to go to the spray bar) with another return high in the water column (i.e. just like the other 3) by either drilling another hole or just going up and over the side (if drilling isn't an option). That way, you would get the best use of the wavemaking features of the OM, i.e. 4 returns that alternate their flow instead of just 3. Depending on the drum configuration of the OM (i.e. how many outlets you will have open at a time, which I would assume will probably be 2), you will have only 3 3/4" returns available for over 12000L of flow. The AM3000 is rated at 3000 gph at 4' head, and (I believe) 3600 at 0' head. Since you are running a closed loop, the only head you have is from pipe friction.

Is your tank already drilled for the configuration in the diagram? If not, I would increase the size of the two inlets to 1" that combine into a 2" to the AM3000. When I was running both AM3000's, I had my first one on a closed loop with just a 1.5" inlet (similar to your diagram) and my second on a closed loop with a 2" inlet. The later worked much better with greater flow! Also in regards to the returns from the 4-way, maybe place all of them in the back wall with Loc-line to vary the directions since you plan on having the Streams as well, which can be placed more towards the front corners, i.e. similar to Reefs stream setup. This is how I think that I am going to run my stream/OM 4-way combination.

Cheers,

Steve

[chimera]

thanks steve, i see what you mean. essentially the spray bar and om 4-way are t'd off from the pump so the spray bar is always going and the outlet's from the om are alternating/switching.

not really an option to drill since the tank is already in place and functional. unfortunately the bottom holes are 3/4" and combining two of them to give 1.5" to the pump is my only option. however at 13,500+ litres per hour @ 0 ft head even a couple thousand lt/hr less is not really a concern

dont forget that the tank is only 5 foot and it will ALSO have streams. the closed loops are purely to shift water and hit any dead spots (under the reef rack). each outlet back into the tank (near the top) are drilled 3/4" as well. each outlet is also running a rotating flow nozzle which disperses the water around the tank quite well. not sure on how these will go at such a large increase in flow rate - not a concern if they dont work though, millions of ideas to play with! the streams will sit at either end near the front pointing across and slightly towards the back. remember this is only a 5 foot tank - i dont particularly want my fish to go surfing :lol:

here's a pic of the back of the tank again, holes drilled near the top:

rotating flow nozzle shown here (old photo, oct 2004):

[chimera]

well here's a minor update on the tank progress... nothing rennovations (stage one that is) are almost finished which is cool. walls are painted and things are progressing nicely on that front - but not so much with the tank. did a 300 litre water change tonight which should help things along!

here's a shot of the tank in the wall with walls painted. the fridge along with the other crap obviously dont belong there but should give you an idea of how it looks. you can still make out the temporary powerheads and the half finished right-hand side aquascaping!!! the outside edge of the tank still has masking tape around it too which surprisingly makes it appear a bit smaller. not too long to go before closed loop is complete and i can get on with finishing up.

oh, and just to show a bit of the rennovations, here's a small collage of before and after shots of our new kitchen (less the island unit, window and flooring) me trying to work out how to disconnect the wiring all photo's taken on slightly different angles but of same back corner...

[suphew]

Hay, noticed that you stated your using 2x3/4inch holes to replace 1x1.5inch, I assume you realise 2x3/4inch holes will only give you half the area (therefore flow) of a 1.5 inch hole? If you actually need a 1.5inch hole you will need 4x3/4.

[cracker]

Hey Chimera, Where abouts in Auck are you?

I shouid come ova for a nosey some time....Could learn a thing or two!

Its looking like you have spent some serious time and dosh on that baby...Twice as much as what you've told the wife eh!!

:lol:

[chimera]

suphew - yeah i realised this the other day good old pi r^2 - never even thought about it when i originally designed it...

if anyone can think of a better solution from what i have, would be much appreciated!

cracker, no problems send me a PM whenever

[chimera]

let me know if this makes sense:

According to the marine depot web site, the dolphin ampmaster 3000 (the pump im planning to use for my closed loops) has a maximum flow rate of 3000 GPH (or 11,350 LPH or 190 LPM) The inlet and outlets are 1.5". The web site states that "the pump is able to run through a 1" pipe although flow rate will be decreased by 40%. In other words it has a max flow of 60 GPM (227 LPM) through 1.5" pipe and max flow of 26 GPM (98 LPM) through 1" pipe" (this is where i got confused, it looks like reduced TOO 40% rather than BY 40%). I aim to run through 2 x 0.75" pipes. Here's the technical details:

1.50" = 40mm

1.00" = 25mm

0.75" = 20mm

Using pi r ^ 2...

1 x 1.50" = surface area of 1256mm sq. this is what is recommended to provide maximum flow.

1 x 1.00" = surface area of 490mm sq. this is what they state will decrease flow rate by 40%

2 x 0.75" = surface area of 628mm sq. this is what i aim to run. this decreases flow rate by about 30%.

So, based on the figures above, flow rate for the closed loop through 2 x 0.75" pipes (Y'd together to a 1.5" pipe) will reduce from 60 GPM (227 LPM) to about 36 GPM (136 LPM) or 8160 LPH.

While this figure is not near the maximum, it is still considerable flow. Options are:

1. Continue with the design using the original plan (diagramed a few posts above) and just use a reduced flow rate

2. Sell the Ampmaster for a smaller pump and plumb it up differently.

3. Swap my current return pump (an Iwaki 55RLT) with the Dolphin Ampmaster 3000, buy another sea-swirl (ouch) and plumb the return to 2 x sea-swirls. Use the Iwaki for the closed loops. (preferably not, dont want to spend anymore!!!)

4.

Recommendations?!?!

oh, and in regards to lighting, i will be getting 2 hew 250W 20K's. My ballasts cant handle 400W but never mind, next years upgrade

[Ira]

Chimera, you suck at math! Just kidding.

A 40% decrease from 227LPM would be 136LPM(60% of 227)

[Pies]

Chimera - Why use the dolphin pump if its going to be reduced by at least 40% because of bad plumbing? Why not buy a grunty pump that can handle your smaller pipe sizes with raw-power?

It looks to me like your trying to get a square peg into a round hole. That is your trying to solve a problem that you have created yourself that doesn't exist yet.

More power.

Pie

PS: Dump the tank contents, re-drill the holes to approiate/correct size and re-fill?

[chimera]

Ira, it isnt my math, it's what i've quoted from the Marine Depot web site. Thats why i say I think they mean decrease TO 40% (which would be 227LPM to 98LPM - which is what they quoted (ok, thats 43% but pretty close) rather than BY 40% (which would be 227LPM to 136LPM) Either that or they did mean BY 40% but just quoted their 227LPM to 96LPM decrease incorrectly!!!

I would say they meant TO 40% of the maximum flow rate. If this is the case, then my 2 x 3/4" pipes would be 50% of the maximum flow so 113LPM or 6800LPH.

Question is, do I retain my plan at this flow rate or redesign?

Pies, cant change tank holes Im just getting shitty with changing stuff around, just want it finished, reduced flow rate or not.

Another question, is the restriction at the tank hole outlet's? In other words, if the 3/4" valve comes out then immediately increased to 1" then Y'd to a 1.5" (or even larger) is that going to help by having more water volume in the pipes prior to the pump inlet?

[Pies]

Insted of buying a dolphin just buy a big fat IWAKI or similar. Seems wrong to reduce a pump down to 40% of its power.

Not sure about the hole positioning. I suspect that because the water travels through the smaller hole before getting larger (then smaller again) its probably as bad as having all the pluming small?

Not sure?

Pie

[chimera]

I already have the dolphin

Points for:

- The website does state that it can run with a 1" inlet. Two 3/4" inlet's is still larger than a 1" inlet.

- The flow rate is pretty much exactly the same as the 2 x Iwaki 30RXT's I previously had

- The power consumption of the Dolphin is much less than 2 x Iwakis.

- Plumbing will be simpler with one pump rather than two pumps

- The Dolphin can second as a return pump later or incase of emergency should my Iwaki 55RLT die a sudden death (if that happened, I would buy a 2nd sea-swirl)

- I can use it to empty my neighbours pool in 5 minutes flat should they piss me off 8)

Points against:

- Flow rate is reduced (yes, this does seem a waste) however issue here being the size of the tank outlets, not the pump.

- Ummmm....?

[JoeBlog]

I wouldn’t sell the pump since I think it is absolutely ideal for the 4-way that you are getting. I would drain the tank down a bit and drill another hole in the back wall (possibly next to the overflow and behind your existing rockwork so that the input isn’t visible). I just drilled 8 holes in my tank and it is absolutely no problem. Granted, my tank wasn’t full, but I wouldn’t have any reservations now. Just use heaps of water, take your time and you will have a nice hole in your tank so that you can use your sweet pump properly. While you are at it, I would drill another hole for the 4th 4-way outlet and rework the return plumbing as described in my earlier post.

If you are really hesitant about drilling the tank, you could always simply put the input pipe over the top of the tank. A bit of an eye sore, but can be hidden fairly effectively with creative aquascaping and again no (well, minimal) head loss since it is a closed loop.

I would definitely not restrict the input to the pump in any way. In fact, I would recommend using a 2†input instead of a 1.5â€. When I installed my first AM3000, I had quite a few elbows since the installation was a bit awkward. I couldn’t believe how drastically the flow was reduced. I shortly after reworked the plumbing so that it was 1.5†over the side input with a minimum of bends and the output was amazing. I then bought the second AM3000 (yours now) and plumbed it over the side as well, but with 2†input plumbing and noticed a sharp increase in output.

Lastly, I believe that the make output of the AM3000 is 3600gph, which is at zero head. 3000gph is at a 4’ head.

[Pies]

Sounds like you have no worries then. You have changed 2 pumps for 1 pump to achive the same thing as you had with the 2 pumps but now it costs less to run. Its a win all around?

Pie

[Ira]

Having most of the piping be 1" and squeezed down to 3/4" at one point is going to be better than 3/4" all the way, but it's not going to be much of a difference. Like you'd be losing 35% flow instead of losing 40%. I say if you're getting better flow for less power and less complexity, go for it, even if you're not getting its max capacity.

[chimera]

question: while this is potentially a risk (depends on 'device' - if it exists) is there a device you can buy/hire that is a box shape that suctions onto the glass inside the tank that creates a water tight seal? if so, then i could mount this inside the tank then drill the holes without emptying the tank. risky but time saving and less stress with moving the fishies!!!

if there is i would do 2 more 1" holes near the bottom/back for inlets and another 3/4" hole for a fourth inlet as steve says.

steve, post some pic's of your tank!!! or more specifically your plumbing.

[JoeBlog]

How would you attach the bulk head?

[Ira]

I suppose you could try and make something, just a perspex box or something with some rubber seals to get a better seal, clamp it tight or something. I've read about someone doing that on RC, the problem he had was it worked great until the box floated up to the surface where it obviously wasn't blocking the hole anymore.

[chimera]

Arghhh i knew you would ask that question as I asked myself it. Put the bulkhead (tank valve) inside the box prior to sealing it on there you could then reach in with pliers, pull the threaded end through and screw it all up tight!

oh, and theres no way i'll be selling the dolphin, it's just too cool

[Pies]

Sounds like a great idea, what could possible go wrong. *end sarcasim*

Personally I think the risk is too high. Imagine the tank cracks, unlikley but possilbe. Then what?

Gut out the tank, do it properly. If you do it half assed (small holes when large ones are needed), up and over plumbing etc you will always be unhappy with it. Do it once do it properly is my motto. But in this case do it properly.

It really does sound like the problem is the Dolphin pump though, it just doesn't fit your current setup.

What about this. Since you are stuck with the dolphin why not use it as your return pump, easy to plumb bigger pipes for this. Then use the IWAKI as the closed loop pump with the existing hole sizes?

Pie

[JoeBlog]

How low in the tank do you want to put the holes?

Does silicone seal/dry under water? If so, then you could simply build a glass box yourself and glue it to the side where you want to put the hole. Once sealed, you can drill away and scrape off when completed. Seems a bit sketchy to me though.

Personally, (if you don't want the holes too low, which I don't think that they need to be) I would just empty the tank, say, about half way, leave the fish in there, drill the holes and fill it all back up. This shouldn't take more than an hour (or two if you are really safe/slow during the drilling).

[Ira]

How to screw the bulkhead on is easy, you just have the box open at the top and running all the way to the surface. Drill the hole, reach down and screw the bulkhead in.

[chimera]

pies, a risk i know. the pump swap was an idea, but an idea that involves massively high flow rates coming into the tank with a single sea-swirl so there would need to be a 2nd swirl to accomodate it (1,800gph even at 11 ft head!!!) too much changing here, would rather just stick with the 'slower' flow rate. also, i like the 'turnover rate' through refugium and sump as it is now. changing pumps over would double it.

steve, tank holes to go half way down or lower. silicone wont dry under water. as you say, far too sketchy. however, it would not be a difficult thing to make. the water pressure is holding it in place, just a water tight seal would be required. even so, i would rather empty half the tank than risk anything like that. just thought there might be a common contraption that is in use to do this.

ira, smart thinking

the simplest and safest plan i think is empty as much as possible then drill half way down in the back. it is still a risk but the time factor is huge stripping it down and (essentially) starting again. i would plan to get a glazier to perform the drilling - i have drilled and cut glass before but someone with experience is my preference here!