sandysme Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 1/ Is ich and white spot the same disease? 2/ Are formalin, melachite green, and wunder white spot cure all used to cure white spot? 3/ Which is the best treatment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 1/ Yes, they are the same thing - 'Ich' is an abbreviation of the name of the pathogen that causes the freshwater variety of white spot. 2/ They can all be used, with varrying degrees of effectiveness and collateral damage. Most people have good results with Malachite Green based solutions, such as 'White Spot Cure' 3/ It depends upon what else is in your tank, water quality etc - you need to tell us some basics like how long the tank has been set up and what fish you are trying to treat before a recommendation can really be made. How many fish have it? 'White Spot Cure' mentioned above is a relatively safe and efffective treatment in most situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 ages now but it is just the platys that seem to get it, have guppies, swords,BN's, but have lsot recently a couple of platys and now another one is looking not well, I'm wondering if a change from the malachite to something else would be better, have done a half change yesterday and am wondering whether to treat again as ive benn diong it a couple of weeks now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Do you have carbon in your filter? If so, you must remove it as it will remove the meds. Caper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 when I started the treatment, shall I try formalin or white spot cure now as a change from malachite they might of got an immunity, have I missed something, its so frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 If it is a recurring problem then it can only be one thing - water quality. The pathogen that causes Ich/White Spot is always in freshwater, everywhere, all the time, just like there is always bacteria on your skin. It doesn't become a problem unless the fish's immune system is weakened somehow, the same way people tend to get bacterial infections when they are run-down or injured. Ironically it may be that your water changes are exacerbating the problem if they are large and intermittent - they may be changing the water parameters too quickly which causes stress. How often / how much water do you change? 10-20% per week causes far less stress than 20-40% per fortnight because the water quality is more constant week-to-week. I'd stick to using Malachite Green or White Spot Cure - they both work the same way (minor differences), but make sure you continue to treat for 10-14 days after you can no longer see any signs of White spot, because otherwise the free swimming (virtually invisible) stage of the pathogen will take hold again. (FYI the 'white spot' is actually millions of baby pathogens about to burst out and become free-swimming - they live for about 10 days at 28 degrees - that is the stage that Malachite green targets) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 quarter to a third change a week, but yesterday a did a bit more, almost half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 So long as it is regular, then that should be fine, which brings us to the next suspects - fluctuating heat and or contaminants. Is you tank near an open window or in full sun for part of the day? Do you age your water (if your Council adds chlorine to the main water supply you have to either leave it to evaporate out, or add a water treatment to nuetralise it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 window nor full sun, I use aqua plus at changes, I have 5 tanks and this is the only one with the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Hmmm... the plot thickenss... I'll have a think about it and come back to you if I can think of anything else. Maybe the fish have some sort of species specific virus that is weakening them. You could always cull the sick ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 seriously thinking of flushing 2 platys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzy Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 I had white spot or ich whatever but it took me a long time to get rid of it as well as i was just starting out, someone told me to put the temp up to 30 and cover the tank cant remember the reason for covering the tank something to do with the free swimming ones, i also did water change every 3 days to let the treatment have a chance to work then did water change and treated again, I use meth blue or something and that worked. I have read that too much treatment can make them infertile dont know if that correct or not. Hope you get it sorted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 The easy reason why the ich keeps coming back is because it was never fully got rid of in the first place. Ich is ONLY killable when it is free-swimming. That is a tiny part of the lifecycle. Lifecycle: visible ich on fish (unkillable) ich falls to gravel and matures (unkillable) ich releases hundreds of freeswimming ich KILLABLE!!! swimmers latch on to fish, so tiny they are invisible (unkillable) So you see if you stop treating when you no longer see any spots, the last spots to fall are safe from your meds. You need to wait AT LEAST one week after the last spot fell off before you stop treating. Also malachite green and formalin are usually used in conjunction, being stronger together than when used separately. The rate is one drop of each med per litre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 seriously thinking of flushing 2 platys Ya WHAT?! Don't you dare. What a horrible way to go. Put it in a plastic bag and dash it against something hard repeatedly. (You can just throw it without the bag, but I find it is cleaner and less disturbing to use the bag.) Also ich is really contagious, although this is the only tank at the moment with it, be careful not to spread it. Use different equipment for that tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 do you suggest then, take out the 2 with spots, its only the platys that its effecting, its been 2-3 weeks of treatment and changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 If it is just one species which has been affected you could try taking those ones out and treating them in a hospital tank. There would still be a risk that the other fish may get it, though all risk should be gone if none appear after two weeks. Ich is incredibly annoying. Recently I lost a whole tank of fish to it. Didn't quite get on top of it the first time around and the second infection was so heavy it just wiped them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 again today with white spot cure, I will take the 2 out, when should I do a water change again? How much should I take out? and then do I treat again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 out the 2 sickest platys last night, get up this morning and a koi swordtail is dead, what the heck is going on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 I guess I was lucky. I had one fish that had it so i took him out put him in a bucket with Wunder White Spot cure, Left him there over night, put him back into the tank and its all gone and none of the other fish are affected, though I always keep a close eye on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 The easy reason why the ich keeps coming back is because it was never fully got rid of in the first place. You can never completely get rid of it - it is in all freshwater anyway - just like there is always bacteria in the air. Fish with healthy immune systems aren't troubled by it, it is only weakened fish that will succumb to it. If you have an outbreak in a tank you need to kill as much as you can so that the fish's own immune system can recover, but you are really only able to create a window for that to happen before the fish is exposed to more pathogens at a normal level. Other than reducing the outbreak the key is finding what caused the fish to be stressed in the first place, which 99% of the time comes back to water parameters. Ich sucks. The example above is interesting - it sounds as if the fish was removed before the cysts popped, then replaced after they did, thereby keeping the population of pathogens in the main tank at a normal level. I'm a little suprised it didn't get re-infected though, although maybe the stressor had been removed from the main tank by that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysme Posted April 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 whats my next step then, im at my wits end now.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 Option A - Do nothing / wait Option B - complete the coarse of treatement with Malachite Green Option C - I'll probably ruffle a few feathers here, but I would cull the infected fish (humanely), do as big a water change as you can manage, and add some JBL Filterstart / cycle / or equivalent to the filter, and add charcoal to mop up any remaining meds - the theory being that you have removed the main source of the pathogens, as much of any contaminant that might be in your tank, and ensured that you bio-filter is functioning. Other than that, there isn't much esle you can do short of a complete strip-down and re-start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 Heres what I did when I had major recurring ich outbreaks. 25% water change Dosed with formalin and white spot cure, followed up with another dose of white spot cure in 3 days. 25% water change in 10 days took out 1/2 filter media cleaned in hot tap water and added to another filter in another tank. white spot cure wait 3 days No spots? Emptied tank cleaned gravel 1/2 filled with water from other tanks washed filter+media added reactivated filter media from other tank topped up with fresh water. acclimatised fishies no white spot since (3? months later tank is sweet) Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 You can never completely get rid of it - it is in all freshwater anyway - just like there is always bacteria in the air. This page should be read by anyone with a remote possibility of ever having fish with ich (ie all fishkeepers ) http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml The whole site is excellent, if involved, but if you understand the details of how things work, you will be much more able to avoid or fix problems. A quote: Particularly resistant fishes can remain asymptomatic through several cycles of infestation and can act as "carriers" of Ich. What happens is, the free-swimming tomites attach most easily to the gills. The rest of the fishes' skin is protected by a sturdier mucus coating that's constantly renewed, sloughing off all kinds of minute organisms that might settle out. Trophonts that are newly-attached to the epidermis are invisibly small. So a "carrier" fish is simply one that is invisibly carrying Ich, perhaps on its gills. There is no "dormant" independent, long-term encysted life stage separate from a host fish for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This is useful to know. You will often hear to the contrary. Dr. Peter Burgess, who took Ichthyophthirius multifiliis as his Ph.D. subject at Plymouth University, mentioned among Ich "old wives' tales" that "It's present in all aquariums." "What utter rubbish" noted Dr. Burgess (in the Nov 2001 Practical Fishkeeping). Brits don't mince words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 no one has mentioned putting the temp up to a high level(Above 28?)we used to have an old dutchman in our club that swore by this method,someone else may have the exact parameters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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