Nutrient Bloom

[arly]

Hi

I have a tank that has been cycling for 2 weeks now and last week I had a nutrient bloom and the water turned cloudy white - after 3 days of one-third water changes and a dose of stress syme it returned to normal - this morning it was starting to go cloudy again - thinking back the cloudiness started after I used ammo-lock in the tank and last night I put ammo lock in as the levels were high and as I had done such large water changes up to Sunday thought I would be best not to do another one.

Could it be the ammo-lock that is causing the cloudiness?

I used this product on my marine tanks when they were cycling and did not have this problem.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks

Arly

[Caryl]

Is this a freshwater or marine tank?

I never use anything in my tanks, especially during the cycling process. A well balanced tank should never need any sort of additive (my personal opinion).

You will occasionally get a white bloom when setting up a tank but it should resolve itself after a few days. I know that when I do water changes in summer I am more likely to get an algae bloom than at other times of the year. I now don't do water changes when the local water tables are low.

[arly]

Hi Carly

It is a freshwater and normally I don't put anything in although I did with the final stage of cycling with the marine

The water wasn't clearing - it was getting worse and the small fish I had in there were getting fairly stressed

I did a water change this morning before leaving for work so hopefully will be okay when I get home - it wasn't too bad but decided to water change before it got worse.

Does it hurt doing water changes when it is still cycling?

Thanks

Arly

[Caryl]

I have no idea whether doing water changes during the cycle period is a good idea or not. I am terrible at water changes and my tanks only get them two or three times a year (if I think of it).

[Pegasus]

Shame on yer Caryl... three times a year :)

Hi Arly,

Cloudy water is usually a sign of a high bacteria buildup, but if a tank has just been filled or given a heavy water change it could be suspended oxygen in the water made up of very tiny bubbles.

If the cloudiness is caused by bacteria, try this.

An old trick used by hardened aquarists was to place a few handsful of gravel from an established tank, into the cloudy tank, and if possible a filter from an established tank. Adding a bit of water from another tank wouldn't harm either. This helps to speed the "cycle" up, as they call it. Provided you have no fish in the cloudy tank then you have no problems regarding transmitting anything undesireable.

What the gravel, filter and water do is introduce some of the good guys, (The good bacteria) and these go to work and should clear the tank in only a few hours.

What "Cycling" is, is creating a biological filtration system that will control the condition of the water in your tank.

The filtering elements in your filter system, should it be gravel or a medium of some sort, become coated in bacteria, and these bacteria consume much of the waste products that fish produce in the way of ammonia. They (the fish) excrete this through feces, urine, and through the gills. Ammonia at high levels is toxic and has to be changed to ammonium, which can also be harmful at high levels.

Water high in nitrites means that the bio filtration isn't working, and your cloudy water "could" be a sign of this.

You need to constantly check your nitrite and nitrate levels before you do your water changes. Also you should check the water you are ADDING to the tank, as this could be completely opposite to what you are trying to achieve. I always make sure the water is the same temperature before adding, but there are many views on this.

Regarding water changes, if aquarists get into the habit of SIPHONING the rubbish from their tanks instead of VACUUMING, then the water siphoned off can be thrown out and the water you replace it with is your water change. Simple, easy, and few probs with water conditions. I've said it before, but a "Balanced" tank practically looks after itself.

If you are running an undergravel filter and have turned it off for any amount of time you will get a bacteria build up that can cause the cloudy water. Turning it off (or any filter) for a prolonged period can also kill the good bacteria that has begun to populate the substrate. These die rapidly, hence the cloudy water. This is why you should never clean a filter until it is spotless, you should leave some good bacteria on it and not leave it out of the water too long. All filters become "alive" after a period of time.

Just my opinion, but ANYTHING that you add to a tank in the form of chemicals during the setting up period, is going to upset the balance one way or another.

pH can cause almost instant growths in algae, which may appear to cloud the water, so you need to check this constantly as well.

What fish have you got in it, if any?

What is the ammonia level, the nitrite and nitrate level, the pH and the dH (hardness)?

What have you got in the tank besides water, any gravel, rocks, ornaments etc,? Some rocks/ornaments break down and cause cloudiness.

Is the tank planted?

What filter system are you using? (Inside/outside/power/etc)

Are you running activated carbon in it?

Also what other "additives" have you put in the tank since you set it up?

Lotsa questions, but to help we need lotsa answers

Regards

Bill (Pegasus)

[Ira]

Hmmm...What do you mean by "if aquarists get into the habit of SIPHONING the rubbish from their tanks instead of VACUUMING"?

I always vacuum up all the rubbish when I do water changes.

[Pegasus]

It means just what it says.

If you "Siphon" the rubbish off then you are killing two birds with one stone and saving another task. Vacuums usualy collect the rubbish in a bag of some sort and don't usually remove the water. Could be wrong, I often am

Bill

[Ira]

I don't think I've ever heard of someone using a vacuum with a bag or anything to clean up their tank. As far as I know, Vaccuming=using a big tube attached to a hose usually labeled a gravel vacuum or something like that at fish stores. To suck up water and gravel(Or at least suck water THROUGH the gravel) to suck up any garbage and water into a bucket. I suppose you could get a powerhead, attach it to the vacuum and put a fine net on the outlet then use that to vacuum around the tank. Never heard of anyone doing that though.

[Pegasus]

Getting Technical

Vacuum: Aspace devoid of any matter. The word "vacuum" in our discussion is a figure of speech.

There was, and probably still is, a small vacuum unit consisting of a simple airlift with a very fine mesh bag attached to the outlet. This allowed one to suck up the debris from the gravel without losing any water as the system worked completely underwater.

Last I heard there was one that was battery operated and fully submersible.

Bill.

This is diverting from the subject in hand, we have a member here with a problem. Can you help him/her??

[Pegasus]

Seems you may have a point Ira.

On checking several sites nobody seems to have the article I mentioned although this company had something similar, but no photo was available.

... Battery Vac Aquarium Vacuum Cleaner. Here's an easy way to clean your aquarium gravel.

The battery-powered motor uses two C batteries, has a reusable filter bag ... www.aquariumsite.org/prodshow.cfm?ID=666 - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

[ More results from www.aquariumsite.org ]

Bill

[arly]

Hi Bill

Thank you for your indepth reply - I do siphon and I also was not aware of those vacuum things.

I am careful with the temp of water change water and have tested my water before it goes in and no phosphates etc in water.

Readings last night were:

Ammo 3.7

Nitrite .50-1

Nitrate 10

PH 7.6

I don't know about the hardness of the water - how do I test that please?

I did a 25% water change after doing the tests.

There are small haps in there and they seem to be coping - showing no signs of stress now and eating normally. Colours remain the same now as when they were stressed they would change colour.

Hope I have covered your questions.

Thanks

Arly

The only thing I have put in the tank apart from Ammo-Lock twice is Stress-Syme on day 1 and day 7.

There are rocks,gravel and plants in the tank.

The rocks were from an existing tank,but the gravel was new.

I am running a Whisper Second Nature Bio Filter and a small internal power filter - carbon in the Whisper.

[Pegasus]

Hi Arly,

Gotta be pretty careful here, as I am an "Old Hand" and many of my opinions could be shattered by more clued up members. I'm not up to date with the latest trends, or the latest additive that you can put in your tank as a "Wonder Cure" for this or that, in fact I am fully against aditives of any kind, however, your problem.....

Your levels are way too high.

Anything above 0.2ppm of nitrite can cause stress to most fish, and any level above 10ppm in nitrates can do the same.

The fish in my opinion should be moved to different quarters until you get the tank into some form of stable condition.

Anything above 10ppm of nitrate could also cause a rapid increase in algae bloom Which might have been your original prob) Try to stabilize your pH where you have it, which is very slightly alkaline.

The tank could take 15 to 30 days to establish a colony of nitrifying bacteria. (By normal means) Once established in your filter system this will stabilize your ammonia, nitrites, and nitrate, but you can upset this once more very quickly if you add something or overfeed once you have re-introduced the fish.

It's a balancing act that you have to adjust very carefully, because without the "good guys" as I mentioned above, you will have no hope of getting a balanced tank, and the only way you can get these "good guys" is with patience and exteme care.

As I said, the quick way for me was to add some or all of the items I mentioned from an established tank, as this could cut your waiting by half or less. I think someone mentioned adding a handful of garden soil. Personally I haven't tried this, but it certainly couldn't do any harm and could be removed later.

dH (Hardness) is related to the pH in many ways, as soft water is usually silgtly acid, whereas hard water is usually alkaline.

The test is made with a specific measure of tank water to which a number of drops of a liquid soap are added. On adding the drops you shake the container of tank water until it lathers, (Foams). The amount of drops you add once converted give you the deg of hardness (dH).

Finally, your water changes may be the only answer at this point provided your adding water is of an acceptable quality. Do a couple of big changes, say a third and see how the levels react after an hour or so.

Other members will hopefully have some more advise which may help your situation, but in the meantime, watch those Haps

Besides colour you should look for inflamed gills, a sure sign of ammonia probs.

Best of luck, just stick with it, it will come right

Regards

Bill (Pegasus)

[Ira]

I must have some really tough cichlids then. I'd have to do 50% daily water changes to keep my nitrates under 10 PPM. By the end of the week they're usually at about 80 PPM when I do a 50% change.

Anyway, your nitrates are fine, But I agree that your ammonia and nitrites are too high. If you're using ammo block the your test kit probably is giving you false readings on the ammonia. If it were really that high...Well...All your fish would be dead. Above about 1.5 PPM it starts burning off fishes fins. Been there, done that.

I might suggest doing big water changes. A bunch of small water changes isn't nearly as good for clearing up the water as one big water change. A 50% would get the levels down a lot better than two 25% changes.

[Pegasus]

Stop the digs Ira, if you kept your NITRATE levels below 60 or 80 then you wouldn't have to do a FIFTY PERCENT water change, but could do perhaps a 25%, which would be less stressful to most fish (IMHO)

Offer good advice to people that need it, and not critisize people who take the effort to attempt to help others.

Just edited this as I checked my suggestions. This was written by a well known scientist in the field of water conditions.

Nature provides an almost nitrate free environment with levels around 5 ppm or less. The higher the nitrate concentration the more stress for the fish. Extremely severe stress is reached at levels exceeding 60 ppm. Most of the plants fail before reaching this level. This due to an accumulation of live forms feeding from the waste, and the consequently higher biomass (animals living in the aquarium) leads to an increasing demand of oxygen.

Therefore nitrate levels (NO3) should be kept under 10 ppm. As most of the test kits measure nitrogen - nitrate (N-NO3) the reading has to be multiplied by 4.4 to get the accurate nitrate (NO3) concentration.

Is this not what we are trying to mimic in our aquariums, a natural enviroment.

Just one more question Ira,

By the end of the week they're usually at about 80 PPM when I do a 50% change.

Have you ever wondered WHY your nitrate levels are so high after only ONE WEEK

Bill.

[Ira]

What digs? You want to give your advice, fine. Let me give my advice. Just because it differs doesn't mean I'm criticizing you. I've got a tank full of about a dozen SA cichlids living happily in 40-80 PPM nitrates for the last year and more around 120+ for about a year before that(Didn't have a nitrate test kit). I have a tank full of around 50 tetras and guppies that were living happily in around 90ish for at least 6 months until I put different plants in the tank to handle the nitrates. To be perfectly honest, I've been told by several people basically that if my nitrates are above 30 then it will kill all my fish. Yet, mine seem to be happy enough. I'd do even bigger water changes than 50% but since I'm on tank water I've decided not to so I can save water.

I don't think there is any way I could keep my nitrates any lower than they are in the cichlid tank, not without getting rid of most of the fish or putting in a sump full of plants. I've tried putting plants in the main tank. The gold severum loved that. Devoured them. I've tried feeding them less, They're already being fed less than what I think they should. What's the rule, feed them what they can eat in 3 minutes twice a day? They get that once a day.

If you want to call my advice bad, fine. But don't acuse me of criticizing you just because my advice is different.

[Pegasus]

Hi Ira,

We are going off topic again, which seems to be a trend with you and I.

I have NEVER, and NEVER will say your advice is bad, but you do on several occasions seem to "Pick the bones" out of my posts.

You are a knowledgable helpful member to these boards, as I have said before, and all posts, no matter who by, are the writers opinions only, and you have yours, and I have mine, and we can both offer good advice where we can.

Your fish MAY be surviving at the exteme of 120ppm of nitrate, possibly because they have become accustomed to the conditions over time, but lets be honest, the level is far too high, and to suggest that these levels would not stress fish under normal circumstanses is incorrect.

Fish, as with people, can live in adverse conditions, and battery hens or pigs in tight enclosures still remain alive, but are they suffering, I ask you?

You would be hard pushed to control your bio cycle without good filtration and most of all plants which will keep the levels a great deal lower than the ones you mention. Find some tough plants and anchor them down somehow and you should see a change in your water once the plants start to feed. You also mention tank water, which could be pretty soft I would think being on tank water myself.

If you pH is low (acid) then adding some Dolomite or coral chips would bring it up slightly, too high (Alkaline), then a peat moss filter would help. Ammonia levels are affected by pH levels, as are nitrites and nitrates.

Just out of interset, what filter system are you running.?

Might be time to shake hands and concentrate on the problem in hand.

Regards

Bill (Pegasus)

[arly]

Hi Guys

Now no need to fight!!

Actually the fish that are in there live in akaline water and PH apparently should be 7.6 according to what I have read on this fish - can even take a higher PH apparently.

Cloudiness has gone and I am not going to use ammo lock again but continue with water changes when necessary as ammo levels rise - no inflamed gills on fish - checked all that last night - fish are their normal colour - thank you everyone for your help and I have printed all the info off in case I have to refer again to it in the future -

It is all good advice and it is great getting other peoples thoughts and ways they do things - everyone does things differently

Thanks again

Arly

[Ira]

I'll start a new thread...

[Pegasus]

Hi Arly,

Thanks for rescuing me :)

We ain't fighting, this is just a friendly debate which Ira and I often seem to have

You're right about the haps, they do like alkaline conditions.

Pleased to hear the cloudy water has gone and the fish are OK.

Don't know about the Ammo Lock. These things tend to act as a buffer and not a permanent cure. Adding a few more plants might help keep your levels down a bit.

Regards

Bill.

[arly]

Thank you - will get some more plants as the ones in there are small

Have a great weekend!!!!

Thanks again

Arly

[Pegasus]

Hi Arly, Ira,

Don't know if you've visited the new site (fnzas.org) at the head of the page, but there's a great article by Warren on filtration http://www.fnzas.org.nz/filtration.0.html plus more good articles, and one for Brackish fish by Caryl.

New site is coming on great Cees. Looking really good with excellent info

Regards

Bill (Pegasus)

[Warren]

I don't know if this is the correct place to put this post but here goes.

You are possibly looking at adding some plants?

If your nitrate is truely 120ppm plants will not grow at all. They will just sit there and slowly rot. You will need to get the nitrate down below 50ppm (or 30ppm even better) by water changes before the plants can metabolise nitrate.

Plants do not actually use a lot of nitrate. How they control the nitrate level is by using the ammonia products before they are coverted to nitrates. They aid the filter in other words and use some of the excess nitrate.

Hope this helps.

[Ira]

I'm guessing that was meant for me? Yeah, I'm putting some plants in. Right now it's got a ton of Java fern I bought off Caryl, a Borneo sword and a huge floating clump of something I don't know the name of. The nitrate level isn't 120 anymore. Now it stays around 60-80ish PPM doing 50% water changes. I'll give the plants a few weeks to settle in and see if they're makinga difference.

I realize plants don't actually use nitrates well, but they absorb ammonia and less ammonia->less nitrite->less nitrate.

[Warren]

Hi Ira,

You may also want to put in some plants like Hygrophila difformis or Hygrophila polysperma. These are fairly hardy stem plants. They usually grow berserk. Limnophila sessiliflora (Ambulia) is also good.

Most stem plants grow fairly quickly. This means they will use up the excess faster. May be worth trying some. They are also the cheapest types of plants.

Your Borneo Sword and Java Fern are both nice plants, but are both quite slow growers. If they algae up faster than they grow, it might worth giving the Hogrophila's a go. Also, another good plant for nuking nitrate is Duck Weed. Its a pain to get rid of, but it eats nitrates fast!

[Ira]

I've tried duckweed. I basically dumped a net full of it from one of my other tanks into it. Looked like a green snowstorm, but there wasn't a single duckweed left after about 3 days.

Hmmm...Hygrophilia difformis, that name sounds familiar, lemme do a search...Ah! Wisteria! Yep, got some of that. There's actually a good bit of it in the clump of stuff that's floating around the surface. Very pretty plant, I like it. But it's also tasty, apparently. And it looks like I've got the Polysperma too. Thanks. Been trying to find out what it was. Probably 4/5th of the clump is polysperma. Both are supposed to be planted, but neither seems to mind floating around at all. And the fish seem to like having a big mat of them to hide under. Wish my digital camera wasn't dead.