akiko Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Hi guys, i am new here.. please to make yur acquaintances.... i was wondering if anyone had heard of balloon/mini rams? they spot a stockier/thicker and deeper body line... as colorful as the infamous german ram... could these be bought in NZ,too? some of the pics are here http://www.aquaforums.com/forums/index. ... d7f37d0ae2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.L Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 I think there was a discussion on these before, and I think people said they are hybrids or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiko Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 yeah, i heard the same,too... would u know they r a hybrid of rams and ???? i was told bolivian,but they have rams written all over them... and their compacted body , seemed unlikely a product of ram and bolivian.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 I think they're just a mutation. Haven't seen many of them, I think I saw a couple once and they looked like just a horrible freakish mutation that should be killed. But, the ones in that picture don't look too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Did YOU mention KILL Ira???????? Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 i think they look quite kool :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Akiko I think they are lovely... great picture of them!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Why support the supply of these mutations by buying them. They are not the way they are designed to be, and so, as in most of these things. The animal suffers. Don't buy, and tell your dealer why. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiko Posted June 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Why support the supply of these mutations by buying them. They are not the way they are designed to be, and so, as in most of these things. The animal suffers. Don't buy, and tell your dealer why. Alan If it is a mutant, logically and obviously it has got to be different rite? You don't keep gold fish, do you?lol. Goldfish has been around for hubdreds of years,what do they suffer from ? If they(mutants) genuinely suffer from any form of health problems, don't you think the breeders would have problems raising them,too? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,though. There are fishes that I have yet to learn to appreciate their ornamental value, but I refrain from bad mouthing that particular fish. Why did you sound so emotional?It's just a fish and a hobby anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiko Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Hi guys, Check out this website. http://www.geocities.com/yutaka_loo/index.html Balloon rams seem to be more brilliantly colored than the normal the regular ones. Lots of beautiful pic and videos,too. You'll love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 I still haven't changed my mind Definately NOT my cup-of-tea. :roll: They look like they have been crossed with a discus. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Its just a mutation, probably brought about by a recessive gene (too much inbreeding etc). Its most likely that someone would have been breeding them and found some fry with this trait and then selectively breed these mutants. There are several fish out there for sale that have this trait, ballon kissing gouramis seem quite common at lfs's. I have come across this "ballon" trait in convicts that I have breed before too (found one fry that had it out of a total of about 100 fry). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess_crocodile Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 They're not as extreme as some man made fish (yet), but I agree with Alan and Ira, it's not right to mess with nature, things are the way they are for a reason ! We have no way of knowing if the fish suffer any discomfort, though i'd put money on the fact that ryukins and pearscales do (hideous monstrosities) As if inbreeding wasn't a BAD idea anyway. I mean, look at persians, their eyes pop out if you look at them funny, bulldogs can't breathe properly, all freakin' german shephards have hip dysplasia ! For god's sake, leave nature to it's own devices ! (sorry i'm really, really passionate about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midas Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 For god's sake, leave nature to it's own devices ! (sorry i'm really, really passionate about it Hang on a minute, weren't you the one who wanted to crossbreed gambusia, leopard fish, and guppies? Not exactly what I would call leaving nature to it's own devices. Mutations do happen as part of nature, its just that the mutation normally imparts some disadvantage to the mutant hence they don't survive in the wild. On the very rare occassions that the mutation is beneficial the mutant is likely to be more successful and the mutant characteristic is likely to spread through the entire population (evolution). In a fish tank its the fish owner that has usually the final say on what is successful or not, e.g. if the owner thinks a mutation is 'cute' that mutation is likely to be successful (especially if the descision is made to breed the mutant to make more 'cute' fish). Crossbreeding on the other hand would not happen under normal circumstances in the wild, as several mates of the same species are normally available for an animal to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiko Posted September 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Mutations do happen as part of nature, its just that the mutation normally imparts some disadvantage to the mutant hence they don't survive in the wild. On the very rare occassions that the mutation is beneficial the mutant is likely to be more successful and the mutant characteristic is likely to spread through the entire population (evolution). In a fish tank its the fish owner that has usually the final say on what is successful or not, e.g. if the owner thinks a mutation is 'cute' that mutation is likely to be successful (especially if the descision is made to breed the mutant to make more 'cute' fish). Sounds logical and reasonable.I would like to add that most mutants live normally and healthily as opposed to what many thought them to be,simply because they are labelled "mutant". I think mutants make many cringe because of the word we use to describe "departures" from what we regualrly perceived eg existing traits.I believe many species including mankind evolved through mutations which has good/bad qualities inherent in themselves. As for the balloon trait,I have not seen many. Those I have seen, eg molly,betta,kissing gourami and arowana has one thing in common besides having a shorter /compacter body,i.e. the have arched back(high back) except balloon ram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kim Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 if you look at the photo you will see that the other fish have alot of blue on them so the fish are not as bright as they look!!! a good trick :lol: rams dont live long as it is and these things :-? wouldnt live long because they are mutant!!!! i cant see them coming into nz any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livebearer_breeder Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 i personally think they look ugly, i prefer my blue ram to those fat round mutation things any day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess_crocodile Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 (i just cut + pasted from other forum cos i'm so busy) I'm not against crossbreeding, I am against INbreeding and selective breeding for traits that are detrimental to the fish. Like i said, i don't know much about it, but i have the idea that widening the genepool (like in the wild) for fish that have been selectively breed for pet shops(leopards + guppies) by letting them breed with a hardy, wild fish will give them a sort of hybrid vigor. I get this idea from the fact that crossbreed dogs, horses, and cats (the animals i have experience with) are generally more robust, mentally superior (alert, cautious, etc) and less suceptible to illness. BUT, i am not actually trying to crossbreed, they are just in the same tank, if they don't breed, it's not meant to be. It's a big tank and they do have partners of the same species. And if they did crossbreed, and the offspring looked deformed or sickly, i wouldn't allow it to happen again. ---As for leaving nature to it's own devices, fish naturally have acess to other (similar) species, and this is the part i'm not sure about..which ones are compatible, and how likely a crossbreed is to occur in the wild. What i really meant by that comment is that it's wrong to pick out the "cute" "funny" "whatever" fish, and breed from them, when the selected feature would compromise survival of the fish in the wild. I think it's really sad that people breed things like celestial goldfish, to me they look sickly, pathetic, and in pain (if fish feel pain...but don't get me started on that) Sorry for rambling, i'm just in a hurry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princess_crocodile Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 *that was in reply to midas* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiko Posted September 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 you look at the photo you will see that the other fish have alot of blue on them so the fish are not as bright as they look!!! a good trick rams dont live long as it is and these things wouldnt live long because they are mutant!!!! i cant see them coming into nz any time soon. The pics seemed fine and since they are blue rams, lots of blue make them much more brilliant than the regular rams.What trick are you talking about?Have you keep these fishes long enough to make a reasonable conclusion about their normal livespan,I am curious,too.For your information, mutants like goldfish do live a healthy and long life.Mutants are unique as they can be either very strong or weak. We are only discussing about the fish's uniqueness. It's totally irrelevant if they are sold/not sold in nz. You sounded like a regualr ram breeder/supplier. What i really meant by that comment is that it's wrong to pick out the "cute" "funny" "whatever" fish, and breed from them, when the selected feature would compromise survival of the fish in the wild. I think it's really sad that people breed things like celestial goldfish, to me they look sickly, pathetic, and in pain (if fish feel pain...but don't get me started on that) Selective breeding cannot be construed as messing with nature's work entirely.Many farm bred species having adapted to human designed conditions would have a tough time adjusting themselves in the wild.They probly wouldn't know which fishes prey on them and other environmental factors etc.The issue of whether they survive in the wild or not is also irrelevant unless you are comtemplating to release them into the wild for some reason. What is important for a hobbyist and aquarist is the willingness and the ability to give their best to whatever fish they are keeping.I think many forums have been really great in providing these informations and mutual sharing of personal experiences. Yeah, some goldfish really look weird but if you conclude a fish state of health by judging their look, you might become discriminative just like myself many years back when I have blacklisted so many species.Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agoh Posted March 18, 2005 Report Share Posted March 18, 2005 this forum was a great read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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