Filter Database

[varven]

Hi all,

Im hoping all of you can tell me a wee bit about your tanks :

size,

stocking ( fish only/corals )

amount of live rock ?

filter types and details ?

Im trying to develop an approximation of what type of filteration most of you guys tend to lean towards.

If any one would like , please attach pics and details of your DIY projects.

Im a D.I.Y. filter enthusiast

cheers,

V.V.

[JackJackJack]

i think nearly everyone uses the natural (berlin) method.

5x2x1.5

i just have live-rock (~70kg) and water circulation, no filters.

i have a protein skimmer aswell, but rely more on regular (once or twice a week) small water-changes to keep nutrients down.

my fish stocks are low as it is a new tank, but will stay quite low as im more interested in the corals. coral stock will mostly be softies and LPS as i dont have the $$ to spend on a calcium reactor, and with SPS i dont think i'll be able to keep my Ca levels high enough with just kalk dosing.

lighting is 1x400w MH and 3x NO fluoros

[reef]

genarally the modern way for a reef tank is

huge skimmer

heaps of rock

metal halides lights

and thats it, dont need bio balls, canister filter.

the rock in a reef tank will have bacteria attached which will break down ammonia/nitrite/nitrate and the skimmer will remove most organics befor it can pollute the tank.

dont really diy as it works out more expensive due to errors in design and if its going to cost $600 to build a skimmer verses $800 to buy, i would rather spend the extra dollars to get something that is going to look good and work.

[Pies]

I disagree with Reef about DIY, and he uses a DIY skimmer himself!...

Many people here use DIY equipment, some DIY lights, some Kalkwasser stirers and others skimmers (Reef!). If you have the skills, patience and access to the tools you can get some fantastic results.

DIY on some equipment is a very good way save some money. www.reefcentral.com has a DIY section with step by step instructions on how to build everything, from skimmers and CA reactors to tanks and lighting. The also run workshops from time to time. Don't discount DIY, but often you do get something much better for similar money if you shop around.

I use a 'hybrid' Berlin method, live rock & skimmer. I also have a sand bed and a DSB in the sump (berlin method has no sand).

You don't need a MASSIVE skimmer, but you do need a skimmer (check Eric Bournemnans article in last months reefkeeping online magizine on reefcentral).

More rock is better than less rock.

You need lots of water circulation.

Metal halide lights is a must for keeping many corals and is very cost effective over the long term (power consumed vs. light output).

Water changes should be performed OFTEN! Some don't bother, but most do, FAR more important at the start of a tank then after it reaches maturity.

I run a large calcium reactor.

I dose Kalkwasser (lime water). Good, cheap and few disadvantages.

I use carbon in a sock 24/7 (changed fortnightly), and p04 absorbing resin. No mechnical filteration, no filter wool, no bio-balls or siporax or anything else. Rock, skimmer, water + light = reef (just as coral and fish).

I run heavy coral stocking but low-medium fish stocking. Fish are the major cause of polutants and organics in the tank so I am keeping my numbers lower than I could (coral is far more insteresting that the fish anyway!).

Good luck

Pies

[reef]

I would not class my skimmer as diy as it was not build by me and was custom build . really cant see any diy person building it, cost $3000 without labour, could have purchased a brand name skimmer for less.

Diy is ok if you are skilled in acrylic as it is not easy to glue tubing. And if you are new to the hobby and have not used various skimmers, lights etc then it is hard to really understand how the equipment should function.

Water quality is so important in keeping fish/coral I cant see the point of doing half a job, it is better to get things spot on and save money by not losing fish/coral .

FISH/coral come from nutrient poor water so if water quality is not excellant then fish will get stressed and diseases will appear.

I think big skimmers are important as it give you a much better margin of error in terms of getting you water quality up.

ANY skimmer will skim, however a undersized skimmer will leave to much disolved organics in the water which will cause problems due to high organic load.

Great book to get is THE MODERN REEF AQUARIUM BY SVEN/FOSSA

[Pies]

Hahahahaha I class it as a DIY skimmer. Does matter who made it, there is 'store brought' equipment (Tunze, Deltec etc) and DIY equipment, sorry Reef yours is DIY.

Thats 1 of the 2 biggest advantages of DIY, a money saving (doesn't apply in this case) and customisation (which does apply). You had a skimmer made because you felt it was better than buying one.

Hence you are saying that DIY is better than buying DelTec because you had a DelTec but felt that your DIY model was better.

So there you have it, Reef gives DIY the thumbs up, and so do I.

Now all we have to do it convice him to use NSW...

Piemania

[jetskisteve]

[lduncan]

Pies, I don't really know reefs motives behide Custom Built vs. Buying a brand name skimmer, but one thing that came to mind is maybe it seemed a better option at the time. Shipping a 5 foot skimmer from the otherside of the world can not be particularly cheap, or convienient. It may have seemed cheaper to have one made here in NZ, but as with many DIY type projects costs can sometimes run away with you.

Here is the link to the article that pies referred to, it contains some very good practical information.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-02/eb/index.htm

I tend to agree with reef in that DIY for critical, and technical components, such as skimmers should be avoided, unless you are really willing to spend a lot of money and are extreemely interested in the intricacies of the hobby. On the other hand, for more 'low tech' areas, such as lighting, sumps, and overflows, DIY can often work out cheaper and far more effective than 'off the shelf' solutions. My lighting for example is completely DIY, even the reflectors. It would have cost me in excess of $3500 to put MH lighting over my tank using standard aquarium pendants, such as the arcadia ones, instead for under $600 i got dual 400W 10k lights, and i'm very happy with them!

Layton

[Pies]

Layton - If you didn't pick it up, I was just teasing Reef, but nice of you to jump to his defence, are the 2 of you dating?

But I will bite.

The reason why I gave Reef a hard time is that he runs a business that sells different things for the aquairum hobby, including skimmers, so his advice should be considered in 'context'. I thought I should point out the contridiction in his own DIY skimmer and his comment to not use DIY for skimmers, you join the dots and let me know what you come up with...

'low tech' areas, such as lighting

You have got to be kidding right? A skimmer is a plastic tube with a few pipes, simplicity itself (I have a DelTec skimmer - from Reef!!! and it couldn't be much simpler). If lighting is low tech, then skimmers are no tech (catchy and it rhymes).

But you have just re-inforced my point, as did Reef. If you have the skills and tools (Varven said he is an "enthusiast") then DIY makes complete sense. Reefs skimmer - he has access to the means to do a good job and did so. The same with your lights & my Kalkwasser stirer. Hell, I even made my own tank (won't be doing that again!).

There are others here too, Warren, who is contemplating a marine tank. He told me the only way he can afford to do marine/reef is do DIY all his equipment, and anyone who knows warren knows he is able to do a great job. If someone sais to Warren the only way you can get into this hobbie is to buy everything otherwise you will fail, then he won't even try.

In Reefs defence he does bring in some top-notch equipment, and if you are in the market for high quality brand name equipment chances are Aquanet (Reefs business) can supply it and has had some practical experance with it.

Lighting from my own experance. I was going to DIY my lights, but ended up buying a pre-made unit because it was only a few dollars more in the end. When/if I upgrade my lighting (more 250 watters, have decided that 400s not worth it) I am not sure if it will be 'store brought' or DIY.

Pies

[Ira]

A skimmer is a plastic tube with a few pipes, simplicity itself (I have a DelTec skimmer - from Reef!!! and it couldn't be much simpler). If lighting is low tech, then skimmers are no tech (catchy and it rhymes).

Gotta agree with that..."You want me to pay HOW much for something that takes water and blows bubbles through it?!?"

[lduncan]

Pies, i know what you mean, but I still stand by my thoughts regarding skimmers.

Anyone could slap a skimmer together. But whether or not it works, or works efficiently is another story. Efficient skimmer design IS tricky, creating and controlling turbulent flows, creating bubbles of the right size and injecting them, creating flow patterns to maximise contact time within reasonable space considerations, right down to minimising bubbles outputted. Skimmer operation is far from low tech. Lighting is just a few wires and some electricity with a bit of glass to hold it all together.

Layton

[Pies]

I don't belive there is much technology behind skimmers, there is some 'fashon' but little technology. But if you do belive that there is some technology behind them, do what Reef did and copy someone elses design

But serioulsy, if you look at my skimmer, a DelTec. Now DelTec have one of the best reputation for skimmers and are often only critised because of their cost. But there is NOTHING to it. Tube, Ehiem pump with stock needle wheel and air intake (can be purchased from ehiem nothing to do with DelTec) and a few elbows and 45s. Nothing special at all. The only bit that even looks like its custom made is the flange that connected the neck to the body. Everything else is just stock bits glued together.

I don't think as much science goes into them as you think. There is no wind tunnel testing or anything else.

I would love to make my own skimmer (I have some design theories), but there is one thing stoping me. I have no skill what so ever when it comes to DIY, I am about as 'manky' as they come

IRA - you are correct, skimmers are way overpriced. Reef can supply some for VERY competitive prices but they still can't be considered cheap. BTW how is the Berlin going? Have you looked at buying another? Or building

Pies

[Ira]

Still working on getting my sump set up. Will be on a shelf next to my tank. I'll give the Berlin a try in there so it's set up the way it's intended. It's losing a lot of power from the pump with the longer hose from the tank the way I had it. Seems from what I'm reading the biggest reason people have a problem is not enough flow/pressure. Gotta find a nice shelf to use.

[reef]

I don’t think a skimmer is as simply as slapping a piece of plastic together.

Well it would look easy to most inexperience reefers.

The following items are critical in skimmer design:

The water flow rate through the skimmer

The height of the skimmer

The amount of air pumped into the reaction chamber of the skimmer

The diameter of the skimmer

So I don’t think making a one off is going to get you a very efficient skimmer as most quality manufactures have done a lot of testing before they came up with the perfect model.

make a mistake when building a skimmer, then it will cost more as buying parts is not cheap.

[Nicks]

Go you DIY guys

I have made some shocking diy stuff in the past, but I have made stuff that has worked quite well.

Kalk reactors are good made out of buckets, powerheads and other bits and pieces and work well.

Pasta jars made out of Seaclone protien skimmers are also good.

Reactor chambers made out of pasta jars are easy..perspex pasta jars can be bought from freedom furniture for $20-30.

Counter current protien skimmers made out of Queen skimmers is also a good one...take the offending queen skimmer and cut the top off it. Attach to 18" of pipe, air diffusers and a small pump ect...it worked alot better than the Queen ventuti skimmer (but then again what does'nt work better than a Queen )

I can feel a section coming on in the new NZMAS news letter, DIY'ers vs People with to much money or no time.

Must dash got to build a plant pot from the bottom of the Queen Skimmer because that means I get two useful things from one piece of junk:D

[lduncan]

Hey Nicks, how about this for DIY:

This is the pre-prototype of my very own aquacontroller. I designed it from scratch, basically cause none of the existing off the shelf controllers have the features I need. Currently I have all the hardware sorted, now it's just a matter of writing the software for the microcontroller. It is completely standalone, and doesn't need a PC to run. Hopefully i'll have it finished this year, maybe even produce a few to sell. I may even send a demo unit up to Alk so you guys can play with it once it's finished.

Layton

[varven]

Looks like I opened a can of worms here !

While a number of aquaria related DIY projects in the past have yielded promising results, I think personally Id be better of buying a skimmer.

Ive come from a school of thought where skimmers were typically skimmers were given little priority and large complex wet/dry filters were the norm.

It quite went "a good marine hobbyists wet dry filter size and complexity is directily proprtional to errr his 'manhood' " :roll:

Obviously as time has progressed this seems to have changed to more effecient systems with live wrock and skimmers.

cheers,

v.v.

[reef]

thats pretty impressive stuff,

what additional features will you get over a iks computer?

[Nicks]

Hi Layton.

I believe a similiar looking device was used in 9/11 attacks on the US.

What does the beast do???

I believe Dave Holden from Auckland was looking at a sililiar thing a few years ago but using a computer.

[email protected]

Drop him an email

Nicks

[Pies]

Good luck Layton. Like I said last time we spoke, I too looked at building my on controller etc for 2 reasons. I wanted the flexibility offered by the DIY (is this one of those low tech DIY options, not as complex as a skimmer?) computer.

I did find however that the costs started to sneak up until the Neptune was looking like better value (from my perspective). However I understand why you would like to do it your self.

Between me and some close friends and work collegues we have some fine technical people on hand, professionals who are always looking to show off how smart they are.

Also on Ultimatereef there is a gu y(chriskirkby) who has built and uses his own computer controller. He will supply his source code from free on request. May be usefull to steal some of his maths for things like seasonal lighting etc. Not point and re-writing the same thing

Reef - If it costs Layton a zillion dollars to build, it will still be cheaper than the IKS...

Good work, good luck. Anything I can do to help. If it works or shows potential I would help fund a few prototypes.

So to continue this thread. Reef has a DIY a skimmer, Layton DIY lighting and computer/controller, Pies has a DIY tank and NICKS has a DIY potplant pot.

And no matter how badly your DIY skimmer goes its NEVER going to be as bad as a cyclone or queen (but sounds like the queen skimmers make good house hold decorations).

Good luck!

Piemania

[lduncan]

Nicks, I haven't had it blow up yet!

It will have all the features that the IKS has.

The main additional feature is really an ethernet port, which means you can plug it into a network, or a DSL modem, and have secure remote monitoring, and optionally remote control (remote control will be optional. Some people are worried about hackers accessing and taking control of their tank, unlikely, but still possible), all through a standard web browser, no matter where in the world you may be. It has also been designed so that in the future usb may be added, so you could set up a web camera to take still photo's at regular intervals. This is all really to give you piece of mind that your tank is doing fine if you are away on holiday etc.

Additionally the 128x64 graphic display makes programming and using it much easier. There will also be a web browser based configuration option.

It will email, page, or phone alerts such as over temperature, low pH, flood etc. (may even add SMS)

It also supports 8 analogue inputs, meaning you can connect pH probes as well as ion selective electrodes (if you want to spend the cash), ORP, Salinity, temperature.

It will have 12 digital inputs, for float switches, flood sensors, etc.

currently 12 controllable 240V plugs, with the possiblity of adding more.

Now that i've got some tunze streams, I may even be able to reverse engineer their controller and intergrate something more sophisticated in terms of randomness of the cycle of the pumps in software. (I'll have to check this out legally, it could be dodgy otherwise)

If anyone is interested it will use the Dallas 1-wire bus extensively, which means MUCH tidyer wiring.

Hopefully the finished product will be smaller than the IKS.

As far as how expensive it will be, I think I can manufacture and sell it for less than the aquacontroller pro, including a healthy markup. ;-)

I believe Dave Holden from Auckland was looking at a sililiar thing a few years ago but using a computer.

Computers are really too bulky and expensive (even an old 386) for this sort of thing. An embedded stand alone device seems more practical to me.

and NICKS has a DIY potplant pot.

Pies, I told you DIY is more expensive for high tech equipment!

Well there's still a LOT of code to be written, the hardware is the easy part!

Layton

[jetskisteve]

me i just have live rock and a big skimmer

my DIY effort was the wooden coffin that houses my outside sump, and even then i needed help!!!

[Pies]

JetSkiSteve you are an odd guy. You go to Steves house and you are confronted with a Plasma TV, hightech surround sound HT & one of the nicer reef tanks in the country and more cell phones than you would think possilbe. Yet at the same time he types with 1 finger and can't figure out how to use his digital camera and is a complete technophobe hahaha

Layton - The Tunze controller is relay based, should be VERY simple to emulate in software. It does a fine job but I would love some more flexibility from it (like switch the pumps back and foward 100/30 30/100 in day and then run both 30% at night. There are a few places that have reversed the software from IKS, which has a much better (more configurable) wavemaker system (and can be used to drive Stream pumps). Dump that eth0 port and go wireless (802.11x or BT). Have you considered using a device like an Ipaq for the computer? This is the option I was looking at. More expensive but far options for coolness

The Neptune controller is a good value unit, and can do most of what you have talked about (remote control, SMS, web page and PC integration). The only problem I see is that it only allows for 3 probes (temp, PH & ORP) and I don't think you can mix and match them (the only one you would drop would be ORP anyway as a computer without temp or PH would be a bit useless).

Pieman

[lduncan]

Pies, 802.11b/g would be a custom option. The chipsets for these are still relatively expensive (10 x that of wired ethernet), and add significantly to the final cost of the product. BT... you mean BlueTooth? It's dead! No one is really using this anymore (other than phone manufacturers). Other standards like wireless usb are superseeding BT. Range is an issue, and again you would have a PC in there to convert to TCP/IP.

The main problem with the neptune is that for remote control and monitoring, you must have it connected to an additional PC! This is something i want to avoid. Other issues such as the programming interface are vastly improved with a graphic display, and decent software.

Layton

[reef]

layton. one good thing to build in the computer would be ..

if the temp rises say above 28c then the unit should turn off the metal halides, and when the temp goes below say 27c then the halides should turn on again.