Opinon on setting up small tank.

[davidb]

Reef, most places don't have untreated sewerage going straight into the sea. the problem is when there has been heavy rainfall causing overflows or sometimes due to power or mechanical failure. Other things to watch out for is seepage due to septic tanks if you are in an area which still uses these (Huia, Cornwallis etc), or where Rural effluents can wash or seep into the sea from Dairy sheds or piggerys causing high BOD, faecal coliforms, ammonia and nutrients (N &P) (all things you don't want in your tank) Having said that, most people in Auckland use NSW in their reef tanks and have done so for a long time without seeing any ill effects.

[lduncan]

Having said that, most people in Auckland use NSW in their reef tanks and have done so for a long time without seeing any ill effects.

I doubt that.

Not attributing ill effects, is not the same as not seeing ill effects.

The thing I really don't like about NSW is that you really don't know what you're getting. Too unpredictable. Parameters are off from where most people keep tanks anyway.

One of the things other people like about it is that it's got lots of "life", they call it plankton... it's really just animals which end up decaying, and end up having to clean up with your skimmer. Placing unnecessary load on your system.

Also personally it's much more convenient to use ASW

So for me NSW has absolutely nothing going in it's favour.

It seems that cost is the overriding factor for those who use NSW. They seem willing to fly in the face of all other factors.

Many people use NSW and have stunning tanks.

Many people use NSW and have ugly tanks too.

Layton

[davidb]

i use asw myself so i'm not in anyway trying to put asw down layton. i'm just trying to show the benefits and disadvantages of both

[lduncan]

I know. I was just saying that the comments like "I use NSW and never had a problem with it" implies that either they have explicitly ruled it out by conclusive verifiable experimentation (yeah right :lol:), or that they have never had a problem at all (posts here clearly show that's not true either)

People have problems with their tanks, I don't know how anyone can say that they've never had a problem with NSW, when the reality is they actually don't know one way or the other.

Layton

[fish-unit]

all the nice tanks ive seen use nsw so ill stick to that

[lduncan]

All the nice tanks i've seen have yellow pumps, so i'm going to stick with that and make sure I use yellow pumps.

Are the tanks nice because they use NSW, or in spite of using NSW?

[wasp]

It seems that cost is the overriding factor for those who use NSW. Layton

Very good point, cost was certainly rather burdensome when I was using ASW.

As I'd heard all these horror stories about the evils of real seawater I used ASW only when I was a beginner. But cost was a problem and then I discovered someone who actually used NSW and his tank looked OK to me so I decided to risk all and try it myself!

Surprise surprise, after several months on real seawater I just could not see any difference at all.

However to be fair, I would caution newbies that it is not impossible for NSW to harbour parasites, bacteria, and unwanted pollutants. Some wisdom should be used in collecting it.

There was also a case about 8 years ago of a laboratory in Wellington that used NSW to maintain their marine livestock. There was a toxic algae bloom where they did their collection and they lost a lot of their livestock.

[lduncan]

16 cents a liter for ASW.. cheaper than petrol :lol:

[wasp]

Ah Huh!

So now cost is NOT the overriding factor? :lol:

Actually I don't know what NSW costs these days, back when I used it I just found it a needless cost. Although I will admit I still have a bag of IO in the cupboard, just in case!

Mainly I use NSW because I drive right past my collection point every day, so when water conditions are excellent it is easy for me to swoop. Other than the cost saving, for me, it is just easier.

When I used to mix ASW I followed the textbook procedure, started with a drum of RODI, added the measured amount of salt, put a heater in it, left a powerhead running in it, re-checked the salinity after 24 hours and adjusted as needed, kept heater and aeration going until it was used.

Just found the whole thing a hassle & killed some of the joy of keeping a tank. No doubt if I'd kept going with ASW I would have evolved the most time efficient way to do it, but anyway what I do now is almost no time at all, and I look forward to my little visit to the boat ramp every few months to stock up, do it on nice days, it's enjoyable.

[shaneo]

I , as i bet everyone who doesn't already have a saltwater tank does, have been dreaming about possibly setting up a marine tank.

My current freshwater is still a work in progress so unlikely to get into it any time soon. and with an already 500L tank wouldn't really want to go too big.

I'm just wondering what peoples thoughts were on starting on a small scale. I can't really afford skimmer and lights for a large tank, no matter how I look at it. Was wondering if starting with a 50L tank would be ok? I see most nano tanks out there only use HOB filters and no skimmer?

This was what my thoughts were, (mostly because I have most of the equipment lying around unused)

Tank; 2x1x1ft approx 55 litres (14gal)

Filter; aquaclear 500 HOB (suitable)

Lights; 3-4 T8s or a couple of T5s

Rock and sand.

Easy soft corals, (I appricate the effort in keeping hard ones but not so keen on looks)

100W heater

One or two small fish, (chromis or clowns?)

Would try to use NSW, from Takapuna most probably

So really only outlay with setting up would be Rock, Sand, Corals and fish. Does anyone have a suggestion as to monthly/weekly running costs ie food, chems etc. for a tank this size

This was the tank that got me thinking.

_________________

Tom Allen

Last time I went to HFF MT Roskill they had a AR-380 stocked with a pair of occ clowns and a few soft corals etc so it must be o.k ?? coz a ar-380 barely holds 40 lts But the tank looked nice and well presented, didnt even have a skimmer or hob filter. Will have to go back soon and see how the clowns are doing

[Bluetom]

there are hundreds of tanks online with similar setup, so must be possible. Just hard, would be my guess and if you had a large reef tank running at the same time I suppose you could always have a rescue plan for crashes etc.

Interesting discussion about NSW vs ASW guys. Is there ever a single right answer? Ãsn't It all about the situation and what worksfor who?

[lduncan]

Lots of things are possible. But when you take into account what you want out of a system, resources, and limitations, you end up narrowing down to things which are possible for your situation.

People will always tell you there are many ways to skin a cat. Usually when they want to justify why they do something the way they do, but can't come up with a real reason.

The key with this hobby is to recognise that there is always a single best way to do something. That best way may be different for different people and their circumstances etc, but the best thing you can do is look at the multitude of different approaches, weight them up against your personal priorities and chose the best way from the get go. You'll save a lot of money on bad ideas, bad equipment choices etc.

One thing which baffles me is when someone says that they chose to do something a particular way because "everyone else seems to do it that way". (100,000 lemmings can't be wrong syndrome) Shows a real lack of thought. You should always have good reasons for the methods you choose.

Layton

[chimera]

The thing I really don't like about NSW is that you really don't know what you're getting. Too unpredictable. Parameters are off from where most people keep tanks anyway.

One of the things other people like about it is that it's got lots of "life", they call it plankton... it's really just animals which end up decaying, and end up having to clean up with your skimmer. Placing unnecessary load on your system.

Many people use it without any problems. Just like those who use ASW, the same applies.

It seems NSW for most people is cost, ASW for others is down to convenience. I dont buy the one is better than the other debate, they both have their goods and bads. I'll define what you need to know and state the facts with NSW...

- NSW is free, ASW costs

- NSW you need to collect, ASW you brew from home (convenience/time so simply a personal preference)

- NSW contains (Takapuna) 1100Mg, 380Ca, 7kH which is at or below the minimum desired levels (that being 1250-1350Mg, 380-450Ca, 7-11kH) Assuming a 20% water change, typically not a huge top up for the average aquarium.

- NSW contains (Takapuna) 0.25ppm ammonia (Again, assuming 20% water change, diluted with what will be close on 0ppm ammonia will be even less ppm. In an established system, what remains will be taken up very quickly)

- NSW contains salinity (Takapuna) of 1.026 (most keep their aquariums around 1.024/1.025 so usually just dilute with a small amount of RODI water)

- NSW and ASW both contain other trace elements used in your aquarium, the difference being NSW works it out itself

- NSW should be collected up to an hour before high tide and never after heavy rain incase of any run-off

Also bear in mind ASW has varying levels of trace elements from one brand to another, so you really dont know what you're getting. Too unpredictable. Sound familiar? Just because it's all packaged and pretty, dont think its fully trustworthy and reliable.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/11/aafeature1

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1/view

From link 2 above,...

What is the Best Salt?

A worthy goal for any artificial salt mix would be to create a sea water solution which is as close as possible to natural sea water. Unfortunately, no salt in this study comes very close to meeting this goal. Assigning "weights" to each element in order to mathematically determine a best salt is fraught with immense difficulty. Who can say with quantitative certainty which elements are more important to the life in our tanks? Are excess Copper levels worse than excess Arsenic levels? Is a Strontium deficiency more or less critical than a Magnesium deficiency? There are hundreds of such questions that could be argued endlessly. We will not attempt it. We can, however, note those pieces of data that "stick out" and try to summarize which salts seem to get which elements right, i.e.; are closest to NSW levels or correctly minimize the subjectively "bad" elements and elevate the subjectively "good" ones.

Specific issues of concern are:

Instant Ocean, Crystal Sea MarineMix and Crystal Sea Bio-Assay all mix to an unnaturally high pH. A major water change followed by the addition of kalkwasser or the rapid addition of a buffer additive could create an undesirable pH peak.

Oceanic Sea Salt has abnormally high levels of Aluminum, Manganese, Nickel and Zinc. It also has a Strontium deficiency, but is otherwise similar to the other salts. Some type of metal contamination seems a possibility.

Bio-Sea MarineMix has unusually high levels of Aluminum and Vanadium.

Crystal Sea MarineMix has high levels of Antimony, Boron, Lithium, Lead, Palladium, and Titanium. Like Oceanic, it is also deficient in Strontium.

AquaMedic Sea Salt has Barium levels roughly double the other salts, as well as notably high Bismuth, Cobalt, Lead, Selenium and Titanium.

Omega Sea Marine Salt has the highest levels of Copper, Chromium, and Arsenic of all the salts tested. Its Vanadium levels are similar to Bio-Sea MarineMix.

Tropic Marin Sea Salt has high Copper and ties with Omega Sea for the highest Chromium levels.

Instant Ocean has the highest Titanium level. Its Aluminum level is also high, but less than half of the highest salt mix (Oceanic).

Kent Marine Sea Salt shares the Aluminum levels of Instant Ocean and Crystal Sea Bio-Assay, it is high, but less than half of the worst level for that element. Its Antimony and Chromium levels are also high.

Crystal Sea Bio-Assay has the highest Lithium and Nickel levels of any salt tested. It shares the moderately high Aluminum levels of Instant Ocean and Kent Marine, and also matches Kent Marine in high Antimony and Chromium.

For all intents and purposes, choose ASW or NSW for water changes based on convenience and cost

[reef]

Enterococci which is tested by city councils around NZ.

About 38% of the coral reefs in the Florida Keys have died in the past five years, according to marine ecologists Kathryn Patterson and James W. Porter of the University of Georgia, Athens, and their colleagues. Some experts have blamed global warming or overfishing. Now Patterson and Porter have round that bacteria and viruses found in human sewage are responsible for some of the coral decline--and another team of scientists, led by environmental microbiologist Erin Lipp of the University of South Florida in St. Petersburg, says these microbes may be more widespread than thought. Although nonhuman sources of the microbes have not been ruled out, these findings raise the question of whether Florida needs to be doing more to contain its sewage.

Patterson and Porter have discovered that white pox disease, which targets elkhorn corals (Acropora palmata), is caused by the fecal bacterium Serratia marcescens. The magnificent branching elkhorn corals live close to shore and are "the giant redwoods of the reef," says Porter. Since white pox disease was first documented in the Florida Keys in 1996, it has killed 85% of the areas elkhorn corals. White pox disease also has killed elkhorn corals in Jamaica, Belize, the Bahamas, and other Caribbean locations. White pox disease is characterized by white lesions. The coral's tissue is lost, and its limestone skeleton is exposed. The disease is highly contagious, and lesions can grow as rapidly as 2.5 square centimeters a day.

Common fecal bacteria such as enterococci were identified in two-thirds of the coral mucus samples, and 93% contained viruses found in sewage. Fecal microbes appear to "attach to the mucus surface layer and survive," says Lipp. She speculates that when corals become contaminated with fecal microbes, it may set up hospitable conditions that allow opportunistic infections to take hold.

Posted on: Jan 24 2003,

Quote:

I am originally from NW England and now in NZ so I am collecting NSW all the time. I either use right away if conditions are good or store for 3wks under my house in cool dark conditions. Now need for 6 months!!

But beware I have had now problems but a fellow reefer lost livestock from an amonia spike after using freshly collected NSW

that was 2003, wonder how bad the water is now after 4 years and population explosion in Auckland.

[Ira]

I use ASW because for me it's about a 45 minute drive each way to get NSW. So time+fuel=more expensive than ASW.

[chimera]

Enterococci which is tested by city councils around NZ

:roll: Isn't it bizzare how those quotes reference the USA and other non-NZL areas, only the 3rd quote references NZL and thats only one persons opinion regarding an ammonia spike which I've already mentioned there are traces of.

There is the possibility that NSW is the source of some of these problems

There is a possibility World War III will start tomorrow. Dont base your "facts" on possibilities.

Maybe you misinterpreted the study. It's doesn't make any claims to unpredictability. All it is looking at is whether an assay of a salt is comparable to the manufacturers supplied data. If you actually read the test procedure you'll see why they might have got the results they did

And you will also come to the conclusion that the study shows all brands of ASW have significantly higher levels of dissolved metals than NSW. There are arguments for both sides Layton.

You forgot risk. Although you might pretend it doesn't exist. It's there. It may not wipe out your tank in one go, but think of the money you might spend cleaning up things, solving problems which could have potentially be cause by using NSW, which you otherwise might not have had to

Yes and risk. This is of course based on the reliability of the source in where you are collecting water.

BlueTom - there are people who have been collecting from Takapuna boat ramp for the past decade without any known problems. Of course, there will be risk based on the collection point however since you're in Birkenhead, Takapuna is close to you and because of the number of people who have collected there without issues, it's perhaps the most recommended place if you choose NSW.

[reef]

Isn't it bizzare how those quotes reference the USA and other non-NZL areas

They test water in nz also due to enterococci. Nothing bizzare about it, what do you think we have a coral reef so they can go and test coral?

what the data shows is that there is a effect on corals and goes hand in hand with problems hobbyist have had but have blamed other issues and have not even thought that the problem could have come form the NSW.

I doubt a ammonia spike is going to kill your corals as it effects fish more than corals.

I know someone who works in a lab and you will be surprised how much contaminates there are in NSW in certain area that hobbyist think are clean water.

Safeswim is a recreational water quality monitoring programme which tests water quality at the city’s main swimming areas on a weekly basis over summer. This year we will be adding a new site at the north end of Long Bay Beach to monitor more accurately water quality at this very popular North Shore Beach taking the total sites monitored to 33 across the city. Throughout the year the Council also tests water quality on a reactive basis after wastewater overflows and local network blockages

sorry bluetom for spoiling your thread should get the mods to split it.

[reef]

So how do you quantify the risk? How do you know when the water is "acceptable

Very good point Layton, Like we have been saying its ok most times but how do you know when it is not.

Whilst ASW is not perfect atleast you are not adding bacteria like Enterococci.

More likley if you live up north or in very remote areas the water will be far safer.

[reef]

You up late Reef, but not late enough to get the last word tonight

Yes i will today, thats it for me on this topic.

[wasp]

Well now we have enough info to determine that both ASW and NSW will kill everything in your tank! :lol:

Interesting discussion about NSW vs ASW guys. Is there ever a single right answer?

No, often there is not. (Runs and hides! :lol: )

Bluetom a feature of marine chat sites is there is always a lot of conflicting info, yet often, they are all right, there ARE more than one ways to skin a cat! Don't take this to mean that EVERYTHING you read is correct though, you have to sift the wheat from the chaff. In the end experience is the best teacher, and most of us have made the odd stuff up or two.

For you, my suggestion would be to contact 2 or 3 nearby reefers and see if you could go look at their tank. When you are needing basic info to get started, you can learn more in 5 minutes seeing how a real tank works, and be able to formulate your own method.

[chimera]

yup agree, as wasp says!

[Bluetom]

I'm am not in the least concerned of thread highjacking (mods), I was keen to find out opinions on NSW vs ASW anyways. Got it without asking, should have expected that though

The tank idea is still in a bit of a holding pattern, almost everyone here has steered me clear of going small without a skimmer, however my other readings have suggest differently. I think I'll ponder a little longer. If a $500 skimmer is the cheapest "good" skimmer then it will have to wait. My plan was $500-$800 for complete setup.

[lduncan]

Honestly what ever you budget for, you're realistically looking at $3,000 to $4,000 absolute minimum for a small setup including some livestock.

Anything less and you're looking at high maintenance and / or high livestock mortality = waste of money.

[TM]

Its not uncommon for certain areas of beaches/bays etc to have levels of 136 enterococci per/100ml (MPN). At this level it can be a health risk and alerts can be put out.

There are lots of points round NZ that have discharges of processed effluent into costal areas.

It has been showen that at certai times of the year levels of entercocci go through the roof.

Ever notice signs saying don't eat the shellfish?

Copper pollution in Auckland waterways is getting close to a level which could be toxic to marine life(ARC).

Can't say where this is but a concern?

How about zinc? these levels are on the up to.

The point is that you have no way of knowing what the water is like that you are collecting.

You may be fine for weeks, months, years but then you get the one bad lot and....How much $ would you loose.

Levels of bacteria can increase very quickly to levels that are extreme and you have no way of knowing. Same with metals etc.

Don't get me wrong i think NSW is fine if you get it from somewhere that has no potential for contamination.

But Takapuna boat ramp playing with fire i rekon.

[Warren]

This topic has been cleaned.

The next person to make a personal attack or reactionary post will receive a lovely one month ban.

Keep on-topic and a cool head.