Ahli or Fryeri

[Tropheus]

Right here we go again!

What is the dif?

Frenchy. You have a pic not so long ago of a Ahli and claimed that none of these have been in NZ as they are very rare. ( Cant seem to find that link)

Our local importer has both Ahlis and Fryeri on its list with Fryeri been double the price.

Tropheus

[herefishiefishie]

Here we go again. :roll:

You have a pic not so long ago of a Ahli and claimed that none of these have been in NZ as they are very rare. ( Cant seem to find that link)

Probably because I have never placed a pic up.

All I will say is that importers sometimes bring electric blues in as Ahli. When they are not. These are rare as hens teeth.

Frenchy

[Afrikan]

Yeap they are so rare that I have even seen a post on the Cichlid Forum from the American guys saying how RARE these fellows are and they would love to get their hands on some..

I have seen those fish that came in as "Ahli" (if these are infact from the same supplier that I am referring to), bit suss looking IMO :-?

However the Fryeri that are on the lists are nice.

[herefishiefishie]

Oh if you look a little down the page, last post only a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/kadango-or-not-vt18804.html

You have Ahli on the brain :lol: nice to be positive. Realistic be better. Just to let you know, the pictures I have seen of yours are fryeri too.

Oh as for this comment,

What is the dif?

I will be a cheeky bugger here for a change.... :roll: You have sold electric blues before, you should know

Frenchy

[Afrikan]

The head shape is distinctively different.. and the Fryeri has the orange flash in the anal fin..

Would be nice to get some Ahli here tho 8) Wishful thinking on my part and also would need the credit card me thinks :lol:

[herefishiefishie]

Here is a pic showing head shape,

Also ahli are more pale. This is a huge confusion topic. You always see topics, comments, Sciaenochromis fryeri ahli, hap ahli, Sciaenochromis fryeri Hap Ahli etc...

Anyone done a google search on images? Talk about ahli everywhere, but they are not.

Quote from where I used to work...

* The genus Sciaenochromis is derived from the Latin word sciaena meaning a sea fish and the Greek word chromato meaning colour - referring to the bright colour, which like a marine fish.

* The species name fryeri is a patronym. It is named after Dr Geoffrey Fryer from the Joint Fisheries Research Organisation Sataion at Nkhata Bay, Lake Malawi.

* The species is considered an 'old species' because of its lakewide distribution and also because of it's breeding technique.

* The Electric Blue was first exported from Lake Malawi in Africa in 1972.

* When it was first exported the closest already described fish was Haplochromis ahli (Trewavas 1935). In 1992 Ad Konings looked at the original speciman collected by Professeror Fülleborn and found that this fish did not match the aquarium fish known as the Electric Blue and thought to be Sciaenochromis ahli. The Sc. ahli hholotype is a much paler fish. This left the fish known in the aquarium trade as the Electric Blue without a scientific name until, in 1993, Ad Konings formally described the Electric Blue as Sciaenochromis fryeri.

* This fish has many trade names (just to add to the confusion that surrounded its valid scientific name), including: Haplochromis Electric Blue, Haplochromis jacksoni, Haplochromis cf. ahli, Haplochromis ahli, and Cyrtocara ahli.

* The blue colour changes in intensity depending upon the male's mood. When he is excited the dark bars virtually disappear.

and

# Taxonomy and systematics....

* Sciaenochromis fryeri was described by Konings in 1993 as Sciaenochromis fryeri. They were previously known as Haplochromis ahli (Trewavas, 1935) or Sciaenochromis ahli.

* However Konings, believing this form to be different from the holotype of S. ahli, named it as a new species.

oh and

# Geographical variants....

* Because they have a lake-wide distribution, this species has several geographical variants. All races have the magnificent metallic blue colour.

* The only difference between S. fryeri populations is the white blaze and dorsal fin stripe and anal fin colouration. The anal fin can be from a "fire" red, to a golden yellow, and some small spots can be found. The southern populations have the white blaze at an earlier age than the northern populations.

* The fish size, also depends on the population location. Some stay around 12-13 centimetres, but others can reach 20 centimetres.

There is no ahli article, as the owner didn't believe them to be in the country.

Frenchy

[herefishiefishie]

These guys here I believe to be correct. From reputable sources.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/photos/art_sci_ahli_01.jpg

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/photos/art_sci_fryeri_01.jpg

http://www.cichlidnewsmagazine.com/issues/2004apr/images/36c.jpg

http://www.malawimayhem.com/images/profiles/S.ahli_m.jpg

oops :oops:

Also read this

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=133497

Frenchy

[herefishiefishie]

On researching more :lol:

Blair's aren't ahli either. Ad Konings calls those Sciaenochromis "big eye".

:roll:

How hard is it just to find a real ahli pic... & NZ is riddled with them...wow

oh as an eg;

S Ahli - Southern strain with white nape

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=133870

From another source,

This is one of the rarest Malawi cichlids in the hobby. The true ahli is very rarely exported from the lake. These guys are often confused with the "Electric Blue Ahli" (Sciaenochromis fryeri) which is very common in the hobby

Sorry bit of an over kill, just hoping that I don't have to type about this topic again. People do forget, aye Mike, or just trying their luck again.

Frenchy

[malawi_man]

I have 2 different variations of ahli I think, one just has a yellow line along the edge of the anal fin and the other variation has the orange anal fin. Can't see the first one on cichlid-forum.

[Afrikan]

Hiya Daniel

The pic you recently showed me, the fish is a fryeri... there are more than one variant of fryeri.. It is not an ahli. As for the other, probably another strain of fryeri, is it possible you could put some pics up?

[OutOfAfrica]

From my limited? knowledge.

When Mr Konnings published his book "Ad Konings Book of Cichlids and all the other fishes of Lake Malawi" it would appear that he identified S. Fryeri as S. Ahli ( Page 104 ) .

Since these early publications many fish have been re-classified and this is where the confusion seems to stem from. Is any one right or wrong, no not really, maybe just not up to date. The pic's above should resolve this discussion - or will it ( most likely the Cichlids from all around the world will be re-classified yet again and the debate will carry on :roll: ). Do you Mr / Mrs Fryeri / Ahli know there name has changed, I doubt it.

Point: I had Proto' Tan' ( Red Empress ) imported under the name Hap' Fenestratus - this way they were brought in legally. I used the reclassification and old documentation to my advantage and it payed off . So who was right or wrong? Nobody really and do you think I give a s#%t - ahh no! NZ now has Red Empress - or myself and Ronald do anyway ( well so far ). From this original stock other enthusiasts will benefit . Happy times to all

I also know that Stigmatochromis Modestus "Eastern" are here too, so one day I guess we will have access to these as well .Tropheus has been breeding them from my original stock I got quite some years ago

OOA

[Alan]

That's a real impressive confession there OOA.

Heard of "Loose lips sink ships"??

I once had some african clawed toads, one mention of the fact to the wrong person and I had an investigating MAF officer on my doorstep.

Result.

Smacking and confiscation.

Dare say you could get a visit.

Depends who reads what you just wrote.

With fish it could result in ALL of them being confiscated.

[ryanjury]

[herefishiefishie]

OOA is back :lol: No need to get offended either.

Is any one right or wrong, no not really, maybe just not up to date.

Yes people are wrong. Importers are the ones miss leading people. If they knew what they were doing,{and they do, fronnies as example later} then people like yourself wouldn't be calling them by there wrong name. Ahli should be wiped from peoples memories.

When it was first exported the closest already described fish was Haplochromis ahli (Trewavas 1935). In 1992 Ad Konings looked at the original speciman collected by Professeror Fülleborn and found that this fish did not match the aquarium fish known as the Electric Blue and thought to be Sciaenochromis ahli. The Sc. ahli hholotype is a much paler fish. This left the fish known in the aquarium trade as the Electric Blue without a scientific name until, in 1993, Ad Konings formally described the Electric Blue as Sciaenochromis fryeri.

As you can see, re classified in 1993, so whats that 13 years for people to get it right. You would think that was a long enough time frame. Silly me.

Do you Mr / Mrs Fryeri / Ahli know there name has changed, I doubt it.

They wouldn't have known what their names were in the first place so I doubt they give a hoot anyway :lol: Shall I go ask? :roll:

As for your stock OOA you just got them in under a wrongly called name, very common mistake for electric blues. Just fryeri, probably from the southern region. Which island would be a debate.

I don't see the fuss, fryeri area much nicer fish anyway.

From my limited? knowledge.

Don't cut yourself short. Or does the

?

mean you are an expert? Dosen't take an expert to see the importance of naming fish correctly. Especially when one species in this case keeps the old name. The other should be called by its correct name. Causes confusion I believe...well funny that, as that point is well proven too.

Oh, thanks for the story on the other species too, I can give you a few from this side of the ditch :lol: I fail to see your point, names change on alot species. Not hard for people to keep up with the times. Look at fronnies, the re classifieds are already on the import lists as gibberosa. What was the point of the last few species? Tickets please.

Frenchy

[Afrikan]

I agree, I mean I think it is most important that people use the correct Scientific names.. I mean the name change obviously had been done for a reason , overall I like to know what I am buying, and I think it saves a huge amount of confusion.. It isn't a case of "who cares". Because others care, and it's a shame that things are advertised falsely.. and fish are brought into this country wrongly identified... but once the correct identity is learnt then why don't people adopt this? Why carry on calling it something that it isn't...?

[ryanjury]

:roll:

[ryanjury]

From my limited? knowledge.

When Mr Konnings published his book "Ad Konings Book of Cichlids and all the other fishes of Lake Malawi" it would appear that he identified S. Fryeri as S. Ahli ( Page 104 ) .

Since these early publications many fish have been re-classified and this is where the confusion seems to stem from. Is any one right or wrong, no not really, maybe just not up to date. The pic's above should resolve this discussion - or will it ( most likely the Cichlids from all around the world will be re-classified yet again and the debate will carry on :roll: ). Do you Mr / Mrs Fryeri / Ahli know there name has changed, I doubt it.

Point: I had Proto' Tan' ( Red Empress ) imported under the name Hap' Fenestratus - this way they were brought in legally. I used the reclassification and old documentation to my advantage and it payed off . So who was right or wrong? Nobody really and do you think I give a s#%t - ahh no! NZ now has Red Empress - or myself and Ronald do anyway ( well so far ). From this original stock other enthusiasts will benefit . Happy times to all

I also know that Stigmatochromis Modestus "Eastern" are here too, so one day I guess we will have access to these as well .Tropheus has been breeding them from my original stock I got quite some years ago

OOA

[OutOfAfrica]

Expert - NO. Nobody on this forum can claim to be an expert, even the experts struggle through their chosen professions. I just like African Cichlids.

Names - doesn't really bother me to be frank. There are individuals out there that will go by any name given whether it be current or not. Pictures speak a thousand words and if all the specimens are of the same variety then that is what matters ( this is how you often come across a little gold mine ). At least if the hobbyist is responsible they will keep them together and avoid cross breeding with other species - this is very important.

Doing your home work and IDing your fish is a great step in the right direction, but does it really matter. No not really because they will still look the same when all is said and done.

Correct IDing is probably very important for the likes of MAF but even they struggle with it all. The fact that I know of or have fish that are not supposed to be in NZ is not through my doing but MAF's problem - I don't check imports and give the official nod. None of my pets are a threat to Native flora or fauna in NZ and this I am happy with.

Take the case of our friends the "Golden Axolotl" - now where the hell did they come from? These are not allowed to be imported FULL STOP ( I tried a few years back through the correct channels ) but they are here in force - how come ? The biggest threat to these guys is another introduced species - THE TROUT!!! We all know how protected the trout are - if the species in question has any significant economical gain to the NZ government then it appears that "they are ok" - yeah right.

Me - I remained unconvinced. So keep on doing your thing Frenchy and Co. Life is all about sharing experiences and I enjoy your input greatly. Keep up the good work team and chow for now

Point to ponder: If all the fish brought into this country were correctly IDed then we wouldn't have much to choose from that is for sure. Have you seen the permitted list - pathetic to say the least. I am so glad a few gems get past the inspection process. I actually personally very much enjoy the challenge of IDing an obviously incorrectly labelled specimen / tank residents. Think about this paragraph VERY carefully because the choice of varieties we enjoy today is a result of ( dare I say it ) incompetence.

BTW: My fish room is looking a little barren now actually so not much to take away regardless of who you are

[ryanjury]

so... maybe u can post a sorry to all the people u said ull sell fish to then,since u have changed your mind now!!!

[OutOfAfrica]

Why is that Ryan.

I have gone from several hundred maybe a thousand fish to just hundreds. Still fish avaliable and I have kept you in mind to. You will be surprised at what is coming your way. I have been hassled about some of them but have made a special effort to keep then for you. PM "loopy" and ask her about the tank thing, she will vouch for me.

Locals have taken quite a lot of stock and that suits me best as it the easiest solution for me. Tropheus has just left with a poly box full heading back to Akld. Still more here though.

Tropheus has convinced me to keep a few but I am not going to let anyone down, that is not my style. There is something here for everyone.

Geez mate just get on that damn plane and come get some for yourself

[Afrikan]

BTW: My fish room is looking a little barren now actually so not much to take away regardless of who you are

to this....

I have gone from several hundred maybe a thousand fish to just hundreds. Still fish avaliable and I have kept you in mind to.

OOA isn't the above a bit of a contradiction then? I think alot of people are confused to what has been going on, you don't reply to some.. It comes down to common decency in replying back telling someone yes or no, you have got something available for them or you haven't..

[ryanjury]

get on the damm plane??... i would if i even knew where i was going to .. i have sent pm after pm asking you whats happening even posted on the forum.. yet no reply all i need is a yes or no a time and a place and ill be there!!!

[OutOfAfrica]

Afrikan - it all depends on your perspective. To me having only a few hundred fish left in aprox 40 odd 3 foot aquariums is pretty damn barren. To the guy who has a single 48 x 18 x 18 aquarium sitting on a stand I guess he would think things are looking good.

Ryan - give me that list of yours and I will let you know what I can do for everyone in your area.

OOA.

[herefishiefishie]

The post at Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:15 pm is the biggest load of bullocks I have ever read from someone who is meant to be well respected for what he does. Very disappointing/disturbing...

Firstly you pride yourself on these oddities & how particular you are yet you don't care what the name is. What the???

I fail to see your references to other fish & what you can get in{need a yawning emoticon} I mean I can tell you plenty of stories about oddities & the such. But there is no point lol.

Oh fish come into the country here to. Back door so to speak. Our list isnt that great. People find ways here, funny thing is they still come in with there correct name.

Frenchy

[Alan]

Take the case of our friends the "Golden Axolotl"

That guy got busted, and did time, also he was closed down with all his stock, not only the gold axxyies but reptiles, birds, anphibians, etc, all being confiscated.

He had a petshop/garden centre out Mt Roskil way, can't remember his name now but I guess older members here will recall him.

He had a real interesting setup to say the least, guarded by a black crow that was the ideal foil to unwanted visitors out of hours.