JackJackJack Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 hi, i am doing the same as ira, building up parts for a marine tank slowly. i bought the tank and stand, its a 5x2x18, now i am looking at getting the lighting sorted out. i am looking at a unit that has a 150w metal halide in it with 5000k double ended bulb and on either side has 2x 24w fluoro's. how much more lighting do i need. i am looking at a reef setup. the rest of the lighting would just be fluoro tubes as i dont think i can budget any more to lighting than the one MH. also i am going to convert a plastic 30gallon container into a sump underneath to hide heaters, skimmer etc. (i know someone has said in the past not to put sump underneath due to noise and mess, but i dont really have any other options ) can i do this without drilling? how? and if i need to drill, what is the best way to do it? can you do it with an already made tank? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 I think for a reef tank you're best off going with a minimum of around 500-750 watts total of lighting for that size. Or at least see if that MH fixture you're looking at can be bought with a 250 watt MH or two 150s. What you're planning could be ok for low light stuff, but won't be enough for high light corals by a long shot. Pies or someone could probably give you more specifics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 From my various trials with lighting, i've come to the conclusion that really, there is no substitute for metal halide lighting. I run 2 400Watt 10000K bulbs on my tank, and that's it, no actinics or nothing. And I'm very happy with them. So I would recomend 2 x 250 Watt MH 10000K bulbs, (i'm assuming here that you would like to keep any sort of coral, from softies to high light stonies) As far as drilling the tank, in my opinion, for a tank that large, there is really no other option than to have it drilled (unless you want a lot of unsightly gear in the tank itself). The reason for this is two fold; 1. I've never seen a reliable self priming "siphon" overflow system yet. Meaning, if the power goes out, you risk you tank emptying onto your floor. Or if the siphon breaks, you end up overflowing your tank onto the floor. 2. The shear volume of water that needs to be moved is also too large for anything other than a drilled overflow. However, there can be significant problems with drilling old glass, as it becomes significantly more brittle with age. The only way to have a (glass) tank drilled is by a professional glass shop, which will have the necessary diamond coated hole saw bits, and even then they will probably not provide any warrany against breaking it. Speaking from recent experience, and considering your from Western Aus, you will need a chiller. A relatively expensive, yet indispensible piece of equipment. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Lighting is a tuff one, and experances differ from tank to tank, person to person. A good fried uses 150 watts and has lifted them because the tank was getting too much light, others I know are exactly the oposite. Fluro tubes are fine for some Actinic lighting (blue), other than that light it up with halides all the way. Fluros just don't pump enough light, or light the tank to the correct spectrum. Halides are better value per watt/luman and increase the number of corals you can try. My tank is similar in size to yours, and I use 4x 5ft T5 (80w ea) + 2x 250 halides. I am considering a lighting upgrade to 250-400-250 or 250-250-250 or 400-400 maybee even 400-400-400 but this is unlikley. Bottom line, you won't EVER have enough light for the reef, no matter what you see, read or hear. If you think you will be able to squeeze through with a little less, you won't. Chiller. Heat is a problem if halide lighting is being used. Chillers seem an obvious soultion. I am in this boat at the moment, but am resisting the purchase in the hope of doing something else. Drilling the tank is a must if you want to run a sump, also reccomended. Drilling a pre-made tank however may well be impossilbe. You can get special hangon weirs etc for this situation, but as layton said, they are frought with danger. Gravity stays on even when the power doesn't. The problems are complex, but often these systems fail in power off or power on situations. I would drill it. There are so many new issues when a sump is employed i wouldn't risk anything at all. Its hard enough sleeping as it is. You can buy or borrow drill bits and do it yourself, this doesn't need to be done by a professional, but is reccomended. If you try and drill yourself, remeber you need to drill from both sides, take your time, use lots of water for lubricant. Trust me, the last thing you want to see at 8am on Monday morning is 250 litres of salt water on the carpet. And yes, I am speaking from experance. Ohhh plastic sumps are excellent and used by many. Easy to drill, cheap and unlikley to break. Just watch out having a heater in there you wouldn't want to melt a hole... Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted December 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 well i could run the sump on the top shelf of the stand next to the tank so it is above the tank and so all the drilling will be done on the plastic sump. is this a decent option? pros/cons? what do you think of the units on this page: http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/category64_1.htm?? are they any good? will they be any good for the hardier corals until i can afford another MH after setting up the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 the aquapro lights are 5000k, no good for reef, need at least 6500k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
count_sexy_tart Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 cheap lighting you may want to look at your local hydroponics store for good lights and plenty of different spectrons in metal halide and son t's for just a couple of examples,have a nosey at www.sog.co.nz just a thought for you guys???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 SOG! Yeah sog are OK, but they are very quite expenive in some areas. I have brought some bits and bots from them, but there halides were not suitable for the price (could get something designed for less). But it is a good place to get stuff from and the online shop is quite good. Lights, as reef said, the 5000k bulbs that come with those units are not going to be much good for anything cept growing algae. You will want 6500k with the majority of people using 10K plus blue actinic. The units themself looked fine. Reef has some metal halide lights for sale, and the price is good and they come with BLV bulbs too which are not cheap. I purchased my Halides from Reef, and if I decide to upgrade to 400 watt (eh reef? I would be happy to use the same again. Above the tank sump. This is fine, infact other than the inconvienance this is prefrable than bellow tank plumbing. If you decide to build a refugiem section into you sump, gravity fed is good as none of the little critters get killed by all that pumping Sounds like your on track, but the usual disclaimer applies. If you don't have the budget to see it through, your not going to have much luck or fun. My advice, save your pennies, buy as you go. Get eveything ready before starting the tank off. The temptation to add, and most likley kill, live stock will be too much. One thing i've learnt is patience is so important with marines, far more important than in freshwater. e.g. When I was in Auckland a while ago, I visited Reefs tank (AWESOME monster reef, one of the nicest tanks you will ever see). Reef then took me to his friends house, another monster tank, must have been close to 1500 litres. The guy (Dave) said he fully cycled the tank for 9 months before adding any life to the tank at all. 9 months! His tank was a stunner, and he had great success. his seceret, patience. Enough preaching from me. Good luck with it. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted December 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 yeah, at the moment i dont see the tank even being set up until about late march. talked to an electrician mate today and have decided on getting 2 150w with 10000k bulbs and 2 blue actinic. what size skimmer for a tank that size? yeah the sump will be above, as that way i can have it in a different room. the chiller is the piece of equipment that will cost the most. how important is the temperature while it is cycling? i ll be putting about 50-70kg live rock in with a small amount of plain rock, how long should i cycle that for?? sorry, as you can tell im a SW newbie here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted January 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 well after lengthy discussions with a few local reef keepers and the bloke at the local marine shop i've decided not to go with halides. seeing as my tank is only 18 inches deep it just doesnt need that kind of light penetration. even emailed my old physics teacher and he agreed with what id worked out as far as how much light will penetrate the tank. what i have decided on is getting a custom light hood made up with a bank of 8x 5'fluoros running 50/50 globes. it will give the most even lighting and it will be identical to a hood i saw running on another tank which had many corals thriving and looked great. MH just gave out too much heat for my liking, and werent nessesary for my liking. and i know the light bank will give out alot of heat aswell, but not nearly as much. the hood will cost $650 and is a nice wooden one that matches my stand. that includes bulbs, fixtures everything, all switches have individual switches. its a really nice hood, not just good lighting! thats one decision out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 fluoros are ok for mushrooms some leathers, why not try t5s much brighter. never seen a decent tanks with fluoros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 I agree with Reef completely on this one. If you want to keep the stoney corals, which often people do, than the halide is the ONLY way to go. I know a guy just down the road with a 3ft reef. So a small tank, and he recently upgraded to a single 175MH light as the 4 3ft tubes he had on it just were not generating enough light. He is VERY happy with his light now, but last time we spoke he was having heating problems... Get the halide light, the are better, look better. You wildlife will thank you, and its something you won't have to retro-fix on later. Otherwise you will find that its not suitable and have to buy one anyway, then you will have to refit everything. Do it properly at the start. As Reef sais, how many successful reef tanks have you seen that only run Fluros (there are some with T5 only, but I think even these are rare). Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted January 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 point taken as to whether ive ever seen a great tank without MH's. the way i saw it was that the advantage of MH was that it penetrated deeper tanks. the lighting i was going to go for was a 150w MH with 2x 30w actinics, totalling 210w. which is fairly low i know. the hood i am looking at is 8x 30w, totalling 240w, still low, but still higher than the other lighting choice. i dont know alot about lighting, but isnt the higher wattage better? what lighting do you have above your tanks reef? thanks for all the help!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 i dont know alot about lighting, but isnt the higher wattage better? what lighting do you have above your tanks reef? thanks for all the help!! No, 150 Watts of Flouro is not as effective as 150 Watts of halide, this has been proven to be true over and over again. Although I have yet to see studies on the reasons why, I suspect it has something to do with the intermediatry step in flouro lighting, the phosphour coating. I believe there are significant losses in the amount of light "power" which is actually re-emitted. As far as lighting goes on my tank, I have two 400 Watt 10000K bulbs (over a 6 foot tank), and i'm very happy with them. I started with flouros, but once I got halides, I wouldn't even attempt a marine tank without them. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 I run 2x 250watt Halide 4x 80watt T5s Halide lighting, is more intense and is required to penetrate deeper tanks. It is brighter, per watt than fluros depending on how its measured (lumans, candle power etc). Here is the thing. You can use all fluros and you will be able to grow some things and it will look 'ok'. However, you will quickly want to try more interesting corals or colourful corals and you will then have to figure out how t fit your lights. Trust me on this, its easier to just buy the stuff you need first than try and retro fit everything later, its also much much cheaper. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted January 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 yeah, i'll go the MH route then. once i have the hardware for this tank i dont want to go changing anything. want all my money to be used for corals! im waiting for our local trade and exchange paper to see if i can pick up some second hand MH. i take it the ones used for horticulture and other uses are the same as for fish tanks? maybe have to change the bulbs, but ive seen 10,000k bulbs for $110 and in the past ive seen MH's go for $120 second hand, so it would still work out cheaper even with a new bulb. no rush for lighting anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 Yeah they are the same or similar. I suspect that you will get a 2nd aquarium one for less than $200 with a bulb (may be old). Ballasts change, and some are not the best, but should be OK. Just hold out until a good one turns up, as you said look now but no hurry. Ohhh and I think you have made a wise choice. We all completely regret buying things twice. 2 skimmers cause the first one way no good. 2 lighting systems cause the first 1 was underpowered. 2 return pumps cause the first one didn't move enough water etc. Good move and good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 Ohhh and I think you have made a wise choice. We all completely regret buying things twice. 2 skimmers cause the first one way no good. 2 lighting systems cause the first 1 was underpowered. 2 return pumps cause the first one didn't move enough water etc. Yip, totally agree, I think I suffered from all three of those problems with my first tank! Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted January 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 well i had a good day today!! went to a salvage yard today to look for tiles for around a pond. after finding the tiles i asked if they had any light fittings in at the moment and he said they had about 10 metal halide units in from a horticultural store and a few fluoros. thought it was my lucky day but when we went to find em the other bloke said a guy had come through and bought them all, for $20 each!!!!! so i just bought the 4 fluoro reflectors ($40 for all 4..... bargain!) and as i was loading up the car i saw the person who had got the MH's, and walked over and talked to him and told him about what i was doing with the tank, and he gave me one for the $20 he had paid... so i have a 400w MH for $20!!!!! i have bought alot of things from this salvage yard (including and oven!) and have found that if the owner says it works, it works, and if it doesnt he'll take it back. so now im gonna go to pro lamps on monday and buy a globe for it... if im running that and the 4 fluoros, what globe should i have in it? 10,000k??? and what fluoros? all 4 as actinics? or 2 actinics and 2 daylight tube?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted January 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 also at the same place they had high pressure sodium lamps, 400w units. they give out alot of light! would these be any good for reefs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Well, things may survive, the information I have read from people such as Eric Borneman suggests that spectrum (effectively the colour) of the light is not criticle to the survival of corals, even species such as acropora. However I can tell you you tank will look like crap if you have a HP sodium light over it, they emit a very narrow spectrum of light in the yellow/red band. You would be very disappointed if you put such a light over a reef tank. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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