Goldie Haven....

[SpidersWeb]

It's the BioZyme. We don't get it in NZ. BioZyme actually does carry the bacteria so it would totally work. I'd say this is where the confusion started. We dont have access to the same products you guys get in the states due to various laws and importing costs etc

We get StressZyme etc but they dont actually contain the bacteria, they just encourage growth, so we actually can't cycle a tank in 2 hours like you have done.

Sorry for the mixup

[sharn]

im guessing biozyme is like bio-spira? we cant get that either but ive heard great things about it!

[Fizgig777]

post removed

[meesheelly]

MAF

[Caryl]

We have very strict quarantine laws and many meds are banned here too.

The MAF meesheelly mentions stands for Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries.

[SpidersWeb]

If they're not available for you, I recommend making friends in the US Kidding...

sssshhhhhh!

[Fizgig777]

sssshhhhhh!

:lol:

[herefishiefishie]

We have similar products here. In fact you were argueing with a person who sells to.{Freakyfish} I used to, got out of the fish game.

Firstly this bacteria from a bottle, eats whatever waste that dosen't exist from a real source, it is from another bottle. Correct.

How do you determine the load in the tank, as in what can the bacteria control? As in the amount of fish to place in the tank. The bacteria that exists, will only be the amount of the load that exists. As in can't have more bacteria than waste load.

Therefore you cant tell people the tank is cycled. As you can't tell me how much load fish wise the tank will be able to handle, that is guess work. Does your tank have enough bacteria to handle 4 fish, 8 fish, 12 fish or what? I know the bottles don't tell you that now aye.

Therefore your tank isn't cycled at all. Its just gone through the process of precessing some chemicals. Thats it.

Yep sure you may not see ammonia burn.....I cheat myself because I know how to aswell. It is still a risk, I fill up new tanks, throw fish in within hours. I know to feed tanks light for a few weeks, few water changes, start off with not many fish....all will be fine. I use soiled lava rock, {pourous breeds bacteria well etc} I would never tell anyone that my tank is cycled & it works, because I know it isn't.

I can't predict the load now can I. "Thats the point"

Just one question for the new tank, what is th ph of the tank?

Frenchy

[herefishiefishie]

I will add that the reason people don't find StressZyme useful on initial setup is because they dose at too low a level and/or they don't dose per the lable instructions for retreatment.

The problem other people may of had is that, nitrifying bacteria cannot live indefinitely without oxygen and food. Thus, the effectiveness of a product depends on its freshness and can be adversely effected by poor handling (e.g., overheating). Unfortunately, these products don't come with a freshness date, so there is no way to know how old they are.

But anyway... that was more for those who have actual interest in something to try rather than having interest only in arguing with me over something they don't have the knowledge about to even argue. You know the black and white end of it, but without opening the mind and trying it, all you're left with is the assumption that it can't possibly be done. I hate to say it, but, the world isn't flat anymore.... Aquarium technology and science make a lot of things possible that those with closed minds will never be able to avail themselves of. But at least don't stand in the way of those who want to get past the world of black and white...

This was what made me interested in posting. I am open minded, I cheat to, all the time.

There are many variations on the above that work. However, it is a bit difficult to give an exact recipe that is guaranteed to work. It is advisable to take a conservative approach and not add fish too quickly.

Frenchy

[Fizgig777]

post removed

[herefishiefishie]

The general term I used is that most of these products don't. As I said if they have been handed poorly then they die.

As I said too, Me & Brad have or used to sell the products mentioned. We live in Australia. Maybe read peoples posts properly.

Gold Fish sensitive aye, wow. Compared to what? I have done similar to what you have done with Alto's. A far more sensitive fish. As I said if you keep your feeds light, water changes, plants in tank....you can keep ammonia levels low.

Well actually, now read this part lol, alot of your ammonia is converted to ammonium, therefore harmless so won't effect your fish at all.

That is why I asked about your ph, thanks for the answer.

You see the nitrogen cycle is all based on science. Yep you can speed it up....I have warm water & run my tanks at high ph. That does it. One thing that slows it down is lower ph & cooler water.

With your ph at neutral what happens is the ammonia{nh3} you place in the tank, some of that converts to ammonium{nh4} because of the ph. Because of the temp too, which also effects ammonia conversion, means it will happens slower than those that lets say keep there water at normal tropical level. eg; 80f or more.

So that means 4 hours is total rubbish, from a science based point of view. Not old school thinking. Logic dear Watson.

Your ammonia never reached high enough levels for it to be converted to nitrite, as a % of your ammonia converted to ammonium, ammonium won't convert to nitrite.

Then the nitrite had to convert to nitrate. Oh, don't forget your bacteria colony has to be established as in growing in substract not free floating. Takes bacteria 15 hours to in ideal conditions to multiply by 2.

For a cycle to be complete, It means Ammonia & Nitrite has to return back to zero.

You see in 4 hours time from the start, if I tested your water, you still would have a reading of Ammonia .

Why?

Test kits don't tell the difference between ammonia & ammonium therefore you would of had a reading. Ammonium is still in your tank.

Thats for the lesson in Tank cycling mate, may I suggest you do as you said & leave the topic alone.

I know one thing & that is that on this topic you know nothing.

Frenchy

[Fizgig777]

The general term I used is that most of these products don't. As I said if they have been handed poorly then they die.

As I said too, Me & Brad have or used to sell the products mentioned. We live in Australia. Maybe read peoples posts properly.

Gold Fish sensitive aye, wow. Compared to what? I have done similar to what you have done with Alto's. A far more sensitive fish. As I said if you keep your feeds light, water changes, plants in tank....you can keep ammonia levels low.

Well actually, now read this part lol, alot of your ammonia is converted to ammonium, therefore harmless so won't effect your fish at all.

That is why I asked about your ph, thanks for the answer.

You see the nitrogen cycle is all based on science. Yep you can speed it up....I have warm water & run my tanks at high ph. That does it. One thing that slows it down is lower ph & cooler water.

With your ph at neutral what happens is the ammonia{nh3} you place in the tank, some of that converts to ammonium{nh4} because of the ph. Because of the temp too, which also effects ammonia conversion, means it will happens slower than those that lets say keep there water at normal tropical level. eg; 80f or more.

So that means 4 hours is total rubbish, from a science based point of view. Not old school thinking. Logic dear Watson.

Your ammonia never reached high enough levels for it to be converted to nitrite, as a % of your ammonia converted to ammonium, ammonium won't convert to nitrite.

Then the nitrite had to convert to nitrate. Oh, don't forget your bacteria colony has to be established as in growing in substract not free floating. Takes bacteria 15 hours to in ideal conditions to multiply by 2.

For a cycle to be complete, It means Ammonia & Nitrite has to return back to zero.

You see in 4 hours time from the start, if I tested your water, you still would have a reading of Ammonia .

Why?

Test kits don't tell the difference between ammonia & ammonium therefore you would of had a reading. Ammonium is still in your tank.

Thats for the lesson in Tank cycling mate, may I suggest you do as you said & leave the topic alone.

I know one thing & that is that on this topic you know nothing.

Frenchy

You wouldn't know what I know because I haven't been responding to questions that would indicate that...

But, yeah, I'm done with the topic and whole site in general... NO one needs this type of offense or harassment, much less to be treated like an idiot.

But, if the mods put up with it, they can have y'all. I'm moving on as there are far better and more pleasant places on the net to talk to real aquarium enthusiasts rather than aquarium nazis. This is the only site where people have jumped all over me about this issue of the many I post photos on.... And if no one has said it before, I'll be the first to say it... you people are ridiculous and rude... Will even go as far as ignorant, because only a true ingnoramous would argue about something they know nothing about and have no way to test or prove (and I never said HOW I achieved this in the first place, and I don't plan on stating it either... you're so smart, you tell people how it can be done... or maybe you're not quite as smart as you want folks to think... the products were listed, could've figured it out and tested it before opening your yap). Any idiot with a 9th grade education can sell aquarium products... And your rudeness pretty much proves it.

[herefishiefishie]

Tissue please.

We asked you how you magically cycled a tank in such a short period of time. You wouldn't answer that particular question. You argued side points like the way the bacteria in the bottles for ever.

Shame you packed the poos, but hey. Guess what this site is well moderated. I am a mod on another site myself. Plus in my case I am a member of at least 8 other fish sites too.

Now I will tell you this, if other sites put up with you giving mis information, than so be it.

You have to realise if you post something that isn't true, then it should be questioned. People may see what you posted as being true & do it themselves.

I haven't treated you like an idiot, you are appearing that way as you haven't answered simple questions.

As I said, when it copmes to tank cycling, you know nothing. Answer the questions if you do

Frenchy

[fishtv]

Cripes i dont think ill share anything with anyone

[Caryl]

I would like to point out we were merely interested in your theory and were asking questions as to how it worked. None of your answers explained logically. Just because some queried your method doesn't necessarily mean they disagreed (although some did. We live in a free country and allowed to disagree with someone), they were merely trying to understand your reasoning.

I am sure I found some of your posts offensive long before you decided we were the rude ones as you seemed to feel defensive from the start.

I hope you enjoy your time elsewhere.

[SpidersWeb]

meh this thread went down the pooper, sorry fizgig

but anyway

Frenchy, I consider a tank 'cycled' when there is sufficent nitrifying bacteria to maintain a fish load without measurable spikes in nitrite or ammonia. Adding large amounts of these bacteria, seems like a safe way to ensure those bacteria numbers are up.

If we say a tank is cycled when the quantity of bacteria is perfectly balanced with the fish load, then our tank would be considered 'uncycled' every time we added a fish, or removed a rock.

So if he is adding nitrifying bacteria (which BioZyme advertises it is), then the tank can be considered cycled, especially if you're putting in 4x the dose and liquids like stresszyme which also encourage growth where needed, the changes of an ammonia spike would be 0 unless BioZyme is false advertising, and we dont have that product here so we can only give him the benefit of the doubt (since thats what the product claims).

[herefishiefishie]

What you apologising for. If this magically cycle in 4 hours was true. Wouldn't it be on the bottles for a start. Wouldn't it be printed by an expert in magizines & wouldn't the lfs, be on a winner therefore selling the product as such. They could send people home with a heap of fish the day they bought the tank.

You see I don't pluck stuff out of thin air.

Frenchy, I consider a tank 'cycled' when there is sufficent nitrifying bacteria to maintain a fish load without measurable spikes in nitrite or ammonia. Adding large amounts of these bacteria, seems like a safe way to ensure those bacteria numbers are up.

So this happened in 4 hours, with a luke warm tank & neutral ph. Ok silly me :roll:

If we say a tank is cycled when the quantity of bacteria is perfectly balanced with the fish load

Well we don't. The tank has to be producing nitrates & the nitrite & ammonia are meant to be a stable zero. & what was the fish load after the chemicals were added?

So if he is adding nitrifying bacteria (which BioZyme advertises it is), then the tank can be considered cycled, especially if you're putting in 4x the dose and liquids like stresszyme which also encourage growth where needed, the changes of an ammonia spike would be 0 unless BioZyme is false advertising, and we dont have that product here so we can only give him the benefit of the doubt (since thats what the product claims).

We all know there are variable factors. Bacteria has to be established as in growing in substract or media. This is all still free floating after 4 hours.

Ammonia converts to ammonium too, especially at neutral to acdic water. its not false advertising, just water chemistry is different from tank to tank.

Spider what I posted comes from books & credited sites, i ain't stupid enough to argue a point without references, its not my style. Have a read on water chemistry in my previous post, cool water, low/neutral ph, slows down the cycling.

I question things that don't seem right. If people can answer the simple questions, I look into it, if they are correct, all sweet. I learned something too. When people can't answer & beat around the bush.like this post} Well that annoys me. I know if they are like me & Brad when someone has a different view, we look it up. We want to see if there is any truth, not who is right. Because in this hobby, sometimes more than one way to skin a cat. I would think Fizgig would of tried to do that surely. He packed the poos. Wouldn't he of loved to show me, Brad.... we were wrong? I would.

As I said, people sometimes use the net for information. You have to be careful what you post when it comes to information.

Frenchy

[Aquagold]

I know this arguement is now stale but I can assure some out there that, like Caryl, we need to be aware of 'new' things.

I was once told 'the mother of all mistakes first started with assumption'.

Remember people once declared the world was flat......

I have been working on a theory for the last eight years and are now seeing it come fruition. Theories by themself are hard to make right sometimes but when you combine and put a bit of intuition in you get some interesting results. These lead to so many more possibilities....

Keep your opinions behind the need to learn...

[Freakyfish]

Either way If he was correect in saying it was cycled (producing Nitrate) then he would have no problems at all answering the questions at the start

As soon as someone starts to pick out parts of peoples posts and ignore the simple questions it starts to worry me

Its a tactic lots of people have used in the past when they dont know what to say

I have used these products and all I have found is they help start the colony though they dont just appear and work

They have to have a food source to produce Nitrate

You need the fish there to keep your cycle going

Its quite simple if he cant handle someone asking questions about his fishkeeping then he shouldnt talk about it

Brad

[Aquagold]

With Crayfish holding plants the filters are feed to keep them at the active level needed to be able to dump livestock in them at any time. Research has been done to know approximately how much biomass produces how much waste...... there are people who would leave nearly all NZ experts scratching their heads wandering what they were talking about.

Your answer may be correct concerning someone but always have an ear to listen.

[Freakyfish]

Yeah but the tanks have been cycled and they are kept at a feeding level to keep the filters going to a determined amount

they have just started from scratch and dump the crays in

I had an ear out listening and asked about his practise to get told he knows what he is doin

and then went on about the temp

I wanted to know about the cycling process yet he couldnt tell me

Brad

[herefishiefishie]

The funny thing is, I said to fuzz I cheat too. As do some of the oldies here. We know how the cycle works so we bend the rules, to allow us to cheat a little. Our fish live, no problems.

Thats the point, fuzz won't lose any fish at all, neither do I. But his statement at the start was wrong about the tank being cycled in 4 hours. Anyone found info to back this up.

Someone please seriously think about it...if it was true, how much money would lfs make out of these products? They are available here in Aussie to, have been for years. In USA too. I know they aren't in the top 5 sellers for dry goods.{Aussie} If they worked that good wouldn't they not. All lfs are driven buy the mighty $$$, you all agree?

Like all the info I have found says, you can speed up the cycle...(4 to 6 weeks is the usual time}

bottles add ammonia & bacteria....

so does

food, dead fish & old filter material & porous rocks.

See the relationship... 4 to 6 weeks, down to 4 hours.

or 672-808 hours down to 4 hours. Wouldn't lfs love that info, Brad you should try it :lol: Sell like hot cakes.

Thanks Aquagold, I never assume. It stands for making an ass out of u & me. I am not short of testing theories. As I stated I cheat myself, why has no one noted that. I ain't stupid enough to say a tank will be cycled in 4 hours. Someone prove it :lol: Can't be that hard if its true. I mean really.

I gave scientific fact to prove it can't, especially in the conditions noted by fuzz. The nitrogen cycle is basic, chemical reactions with water, bacteria.... as I said prove me wrong, please. :lol:

Also, when people find out new things there is still a scientific reason

Frenchy

[quack]

"Never argue with an idiot. The will only drag you down to their level & beat you with experience"

haha love the quote frenchy

i think that the problem started when fuzz started getting defencive about everyones quetsions and saying everyone else didnt know what you were talking about.

but yes i must say i would love to know how to cycle in 4 hours but i carnt see it possible.