I've got tentative permission to setup a marine tank

[Ira]

Chiton is STILL stuck to the bucket. If it was one of my cheap buckets I'd consider just cutting the bottom out and putting it in the tank. But it's my...Well, actually, this bucket was only $.50 along with a bunch of stuff at an auction...But it's my GOOD bucket.

As far as I can tell everyone is still alive.

[Interfecus]

You should probably change your signature .

[Ira]

Haha, Yeah, that's a point, interfecus.

Pies, do you just carry water up from the beach? I've got to find someplace at least that I can get the car closer to the water.

I've never seen the point of leaving a tank sitting empty. Once the tank is at the right temp and any significant amount of clouding from sand or whatever has settled I've always just put the fish in. There doesn't seem to be any real point to just letting the tank sit empty. There won't be any cycling without a source of ammonia, which in a tank full of dead rock and a little bit of sand(Thanks for it, looks great BTW) there won't be any.

I just tried a small piece of brine shrimp. The blennies love it. They dart out, grab a bit and back to their rock.

Bridget wants to go to Wet Pets saturday. So I'll grab some food and see what other bits they've got that I need.

[reef]

ira kiss your fish goodnight, you have killed it, how can you cycle a tank with fish, your rock has to cycle and ammonia is going to go sky high, this is not a freshwater set up. it takes 6-8 weeks to cycle a marine tank.

If you want to speed it up get some ammonia chloride, this will spike the ammonia.

The amount of ammonia your fish is going to products is so small it wont make a differance.

The fish might be ok for a week but then it will be in fish heaven.

If you want to make a go of marines i suggest you speak to pies again.

His tank looks great.

[Pies]

I have 20L plastic jerry cans, 1 of which has a hole drilled into the top. I find a reefy part of coast, away from sand. I only collect water when its crystal clear, and never within 2 days of rain.

On the South coast or fit-e-ray-a (sp???) park, can normally get the car within 5-10 metres of the collection point.

Water is best collected on incomming times, its cleaner, safter and will have a higer plankton count.

Food, I feed once every 2 -3 days. 1 pinch of dried plankton or 1 pinch of flake or 1 small cap (like a cap from a fizzy drink bottle) of frozen brine or mysis, or 1 chunk of 'Marks Special MArine Formula' which is a mixture of frozen brine, mussle, pink shrimp, oister, clam & green nori. I am going to try and order some 'Selcon' which is a marine vitamin to soak my magic mixture in.

1 every 2 weeks I feed via a plastic clip, 1/4 sheet of green nori, and small piece (about the size of 50c coin) of Red Nori. The fish love the green nori, but get sick of the red nori after a few minutes. This will all be gone the next day.

I was feeding every day for a while, some days twice. The fish seamed fine with a healthy aiptite, but Algae was a problem, and the algae grazing fish were not doing there job. Now the fish just about leap out of the tank when I feed. High nutrients means the need for larger skimmers and moire fuel for algae. My fish seem as happy as ever with the new feeding system, which has been in place for about 3 months now.

Pies

[Ira]

Where do you get the nori at? I don't expect to need it anytime soon, though.

I'll definitely go near high tide next time. Never going back to te awhiti again.

[lduncan]

I have to go with reef on this one, please do not buy any fish to put in the tank yet. Like he said, it is very different from freshwater. Most experienced FW fish keepers could setup a tank to house almost any freshwater species in a week or two and not incure any fish losses.

This is where a lot of people go wrong when they move from fresh water to marine, they think that they can do this. Then they find out the hard way that it really can't be done. So please listen to what some of the people have to say, especially on this topic. They have a reasonable amount of first hand experience between them, and their tanks speak for themselves.

Anyway, here is a peice of addition advice which I have found to work successfully on my second tank. You will go through a period during cycling where algae will go crazy (there is no escaping it really). Generally you will get a lot of diatom growth, which looks like a brown power coating on everything. In my opinion, this is the best form of algae, for the simple fact that it is easily cleaned, and skimmers are very efficient at stripping it out of the water column. So my advice is when you reach this stage, let it grow, and blow it off the rocks and sand into the water column every couple of days, and this is the important part. AVOID doing any additional water changes, I think when people see things go wrong with there tanks, they tend to look to do water changes as a quick fix to their problem, however, I believe that doing frequent and significant water changes can upset the equilibrium of a tank, which can often compound the problem. So my advice is really that excessive water changes can really cause more bad than good in a reef tank.

Layton

[Caryl]

I don't think he is going to buy fish for it are you Ira? This is a cold water rock pool marine as far as I understood so not what I would call a reef tank. I don't know a lot about marines so might be wrong with the definitions here

In my coldwater marine I never had any algae appear. I also never lost an inhabitant (unless it was pounced on by another inhabitant and didn't get away fast enough). Never had lights or skimmers and stuff either. Our cold water marine ran for over a year until we got sick of trying to keep it cool over summer. Which reminds me, we did lose some starfish when the temperature got too high for too long.

We never did water changes very often either, just topped it up when the level dropped. Every now and then we would go to the beach and get some sea lettuce to throw in. Never ceased to amaze us how many little critters would be attached to it.

This tank was very simple, and cheap, to set up and run but I would not attempt to set up a tropical marine the same way.

[Ira]

Nope, I don't intend to buy any fish(Or anything except hardware) for it for a long time. Eventually it will be a tropical tank, maybe a reef tank, but for now it's just coldwater to get it cycled and because I blew up my heater. I don't intend to buy any fish until at the very least I get a skimmer and probably will be at least 3-6 months for it to cycle and get all settled. I don't consider it really set up yet, I think of it as being just a step or two above throwing rock and stuff in a bucket to cycle it.

I dunno if coldwater would be accurate though, because the temp is staying around 23-24°C. Too early to say how the inhabitants are going to handle it. Pies didn't have much luck with them with a slightly warmer temp.

[JackJackJack]

just a comment after reading this thread and being in the process of setting up my own reef tank, its a lot easier (AND cheaper) to set up a reef tank in australia!!

for a start i have 2 dedicated marine fish shops within 20 minutes drive. both stock an enormous range of fish including alot of the fish that dont seem to be available in NZ like lionfishes. also i think i saw only about 5 types of fish over $100. live rock is available and sells for $11 a kg depending on what kind (decorative coral encrusted or just cycled rock, the decorative is about $15)

also despite the prices here being quoted in $NZ equipment is alot cheaper.

not bragging or anything, just something i found interesting. why is live rock not available in NZ?? or have i got that wrong?

update on my tank; its now full of water and 60kg live rock and another 40kg 'dead' rock and has 2 crabs and a shrimp in it. lighting is next followed by a skimmer.

[reef]

IRA, if you are going to keep tropical marine then you will have to cycle the tank with tropical temperatures, if you are keep local marines then you will need a chiller. as temp needs to be about 17c.

You can’t just heat the tank up one day and then change it to a tropical marine tank as you will kill all the bacteria and all the marine life.

[lduncan]

JackJackJack

The restriction of live rock, most soft corals, and also some fish species in New Zealand is due to MAF (Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries) regulations. I know that this is a frustrating matter for many hobbyists and importers here in NZ. No real logical reasons behind the species not permitted into NZ other than a lack of infomation at the time the list was compiled. Who knows, maybe they are trying to protect us hobbyists from lionfish venom, which must kill millions of people each year. ;-)

The reasons for it not being altered are really due to time, cost, and all the red tape surrounding it. I know some people have done a lot of work on behalf of reefkeepers in NZ to get some of this stuff into the country legally.

As far as prices for stock, you are much closer to Indonesia (where a lot of fish come from) than us so, freight is cheaper (a major component of costs for importers here) and you also have your own reefs on your doorstep (Don't know whether they allow collection though?) I guess economies of scale also come into it as well.

Layton

[Ira]

Reef, I don't think the 3°-4° from what the tank is sitting at now is going to make much of a difference to the cycle. I'm hoping the tank will settle in a range warm enough that I WILL be able to just bump the temp up a few degrees for tropicals but low enough that the locals will be able to handle it.

Jack, I'd imagine it helps a LOT having a marine fishstore nearby. But the nearest I know of would probably be in Auckland. Tomorrow I am going to one that has a few bits and pieces though, but it's about a 2 hour drive away.

I need to resist the urge to feed them a tiny bit of brineshrimp every day, I think. Though, I doubt there's much in the tank for the inhabitants to graze on. And I'll have to yank out the seaweed in a few days. Though, none of it is showing signs of degrading it's only been 2 days, I expect it will before too long.

[Pies]

JackJackJack. As Layton said. We don't know why live rock and other things (Lion Fish) are restricted here. Its a complete farce. Lion Fish thing really annoys me for several reasons:

1. I would like one.

2. They are almost a perfect beginner fish in a lot of ways, hardy and pretty. Perfect for tanks with larger fish.

3. They live in NZ. Thats right, they can be found in waters in NZ. I belive that what MAF have done, is force people who want one to resort to smuggling one in or poaching one from the reserves that have them here in NZ (the only 2 places they live in the wild here are both reserves). Belive me both of these things happens.

4. Whats the difference between taking a blue tang and a lion fish?

The Lion Fish thing really annoys me.

Yes things are much more expensive here, but in some ways I belive this to be an advantage. That is, people are far less likley to let stock die, and far more dedicated to work at keeping stock alive.

I see many posts by Americans (sorry to any Americans, this is a generalisation) on ReefCentral. They are forever adding fish and coral to make up for dead or dieing stock. No one here is going to go, "o-well, its only a yellow tang, i'll just go and buy some more" not when they are $200.00 you wont!

Also I have met an importer and seen his operation, the care and attention he uses to keep anything and everything alive is truely inspiring. Because he knows that every time he looses something, that cost is ultimatly passed onto us, the consumer.

Yes stuff is taken from Aussie, but mostly fish. Coral is restricted alot, but poaching happens. Austrailian coral doesn't actually have a very good reputation for colour or survival.

Ira. Laytons and reefs advice is good. Take it slowly. I know i have said this like a million times, and to repeat what Layton has said, but the cycle in Marines is so much different to freshwater, so much more violent.

Something you need to add to your list: Salinity measurement device. There are a few refractomoters floating around Auckland, about $160.00ea. They are worth there weight in gold.

Reef & JetSkiSteve have both told me stories about different people who thought their tanks were running .025, turns out they were running .030. Many people, some I know claim they noticed improvement to their tanks the day they got the salinity right. Its one of those buy it once and never need another one items.

Ohhh glad the sand worked out, my offer of some live sand still stands.

Pies

[Ira]

I intend to pick up a hydrometer tomorrow if Wet Pets has some. I'm pretty sure I've seen them there, but it's been a few months. I also need an ammonia test kit. I thought the one I had would work for saltwater but it doesn't look like it. It's just an aquarium pharmaceuticals test kit.

I think I am taking it slowly. At the moment I really don't have any plans for the tank except to sit back and see what happens for the next 3-4 months. For now I'm happy with what I've got, I just need to keep a close eye out for deaths.

Next time I'm going into Wellington I'll pick up some live sand off you. Not sure when that'll be though.

Woohoo! I just got the chiton out of the bucket! I think he's almost dead, though, so I'll check if he's alive in the morning.

[Caryl]

HOW did you get the chiton out??

[Ira]

He climbed up halfway out of the water. I dunno if that was enough to reduce the suction or if he was dying and not gripping as hard. But it was enough that I could slide him up the side of the bucket and off then put him in the tank.

[JackJackJack]

yes having them there helps alot! at one of them the guy has said when i have my equipment bought he will come out, set it up, cart all the water over and show me how to do everything. also as he collects water from the beach down the road from me he also offered to drop water for waterchanges over to my house if i supplied a container. cant top that for service!! also has been more help than anything else in making decisions and is very honest about what he sells. cant beat that.

yes, that law does sound rather stupid. the lionfishes are very beautiful, and i wish they were compatible with the fishes i will be keeping but alas that will have to wait til i set up another one, hehe. havent even got my tank set up and im addicted!!

from my reading the critters from the beach can handle the heat for short periods of time but if it is permanently heated it may affect some of the less hardy animals.

[Ira]

I grabbed a new ammonia test kit, a hagen one...And I still have no idea what the ammonia reading in the tank is. It's dark green and there's no dark green on the color chart. Using 3 different types of drops seems to be a pain in the ass, especially if the end result doesn't match the color chart.

[Alan]

Pies, what reserves have the Lion Fish??

Alan

[Pegasus]

Just wondering if one of those 12volt chilly bins for keeping drinks cool could be converted to a cold sump, like if it had an inlet and outlet and filled with water it might keep it cold enough for the fish.

Just a thought

[Caryl]

We tried that pegasus but our room was too hot and it couldn't cope with the large temperature differential. OK if you only need to lower it by 4 or 5 degrees but we needed to drop it by 13 or more degrees.

[Pegasus]

Did you actually have it filled with water and have the tank water circulating through it Caryl..?

[Ira]

If it can handle 5 degrees that would be close for me. I think about 7 degrees would be enough except for the hottest days. I was thinking a small second hand beer fridge would be a good cheap cooler. Or at least wouldn't cost much if it fails.

Everyone still seems happy, except for one of the big snails, he's probably a bit annoyed at having a chiton stuck to his shell. And the Blennies seem fascinated by the snails, they're always following them around.

[JackJackJack]

he's probably a bit annoyed at having a chiton stuck to his shell

lol