Shilo

Caryl, you may be confusing it with Hornwort. According with the NIWA website http://www.niwa.cri.nz/rc/prog/aquaticplants/species/submerged Myriophyllum propinquum is one of the 2 native Milfoils. I was surprised that Starwort wasn't a native as well. When hunting around it was surprising where I found introduced species and the natives. One fairly isolated tarn in the Urewera's was riddled with introduced plants with next to no natives while a Waikato spring by a road side had mainly natives. :roll: One thing all this has done was to open my eyes to the damage introduced plants are doing to our water ways. Everybody concentrates on land weeds but water weeds are doing far more damage then blackberry or ragwort, out of sight out of mind I suppose.

Finally finished converting my tropical tank into a NZ Biotope. Was on holiday last week and spent part of the time scoring lakes and streams for more fish and plants for the tank. A Biotope is normally a snap shot of a habitat, but since I couldn't find a scene good enough to copy I decided to mix and match a Rotorua lake bed (plants & kitty litter / gravel substrate to look like pumice sand) and a bush stream (wood and mosses). Since the tank was only planted out this morning its not yet looking its best until the plants start straightening out. Currently it contains: Fish 1 x Banded Kokopu 4 x Inanga 5 x Common Bullys Crustacians 2 x Korua ? x Freshwater Shrimp Plants Myriophyllum propinquum (native) Potamogeton crispus (introduced) Potamogeton ochreatus (native) Ranunculus trichophyllus (introduced) Nitella hookeri (native) Glossostigma elatinoides (native) Lilaeopsis ruthiana (native) Callitriche stagnalis (introduced) Various types of submerged mosses (native) The 3 introduced varieties will be replaced with natives once I come across some more. The Inanga, Glossostigma and Lilaeopsis were purchased because I was to lazy to hunt them out. Despite being trodden on in the middle of the night then scooped up in a net and traveling in the back of the jeep for 2 days in a Tupperware container, the bullys are remarkably friendly and inquisitive. Even this soon they come up to the glass to check me out

Back to the Drawing Board Just got back from a weeks holiday to find some fine bubbles coming up from the evaporator coil. The chiller had been switched off since its not needed but the tank was still full of water. So I switched it only to created with geysers that would make Rottenrua look on with envy. The aluminium coil had corroded through. It was a fear of mine but considered that since the coil is constantly wet as a dehumidifier it must be reasonably corrosion resistant - Wrong! I think the concept is still workable, the coil would have to be kept in a non corrosive fluid (anti-freeze?) and the aquarium water piped through either a stainless (freshwater) or titanium coil sitting in the coolant fluid. Either way this dehumidifier is now defunct. Once I get over swearing and cursing (the joys of DIY!) I might look up a local refridgeration guy to see if he could cut the coil off and join on a stainless one then regas the contraption. Got a few months to go before temps become a problem, and its to late to give up on a native tank now - part of my holiday involved hunting for native plants and catching more fish for the tank which are currently swimming around in a fish bin (with filter) waiting to be introduced into the aquarium after I renovate it tomorrow. If you don't try you never win.......

If you still do water changes then Yes, I don't think filtration will be needed. Worst comes to worst and the water looks a bit cloudy then a simple internal sponge filter (even homemade) will work well enough. Water changes Why do water changes in a plant only? Simple it saves money on buying test kits. You will need to experiment at first to get a feel on how much ferts the plants are going through in a week, and here a test kit could be handy (Nitrate & Phospate mainly) but once you know the plants are going trough X amount of KNO3 etc a week then you can stop testing and just add this much each week (best added every 2 days until X is reached). But a tank never stays the same and micro ferts are hard to test for. To avoid any large buildup of one nutrient or the other that could cause algae or stop the plants uptaking another nutrient you simply set the conditions to zero each week with a simple water change. No more testing! PH will still need to be read but a PH test kit is dirt cheap. Heating Go for a heater. In fact get really fancy and go for an under tank pad heater. Never used one of these but its meant to produce a slight water movement through the substrate keeping it aerobic and slowly releasing the nutrients from the substrate into the water column. Could be home made, being a plumber your husband may know of a electrician willing to wire one up. I think temps are important since I'm currently slowly turning my tropical tank into a coldwater native. Its about 1/2 and 1/2 at the momement and still full of Anabus, Java Fern, Crypts, Java Moss & water sprite. Because it has some native fish in it its being run at a max of 18C. Some of the plants are hurting bad. The Anabus (previously flowering) and Java ferns are only just holding their own, not growing but not dieing off, the Crypts had a growth spirt then started to melt, the water sprite and moss are the only things ok with the low temps. So a few deg can make a difference. Beware of only sand for a substrate. If to fine it can compact and become anerobic (smelly). Things can be done on the cheap and just as well as buying $$$ commercial products. Above is a pic of the tank in its hayday (since got lazy and went low maitenance). And one of it a just after setup. Total cost including fish and plants under $300.

Hi PeneJane, Heres some money saving ideas: Lighting on the cheap. To grow plants at a fast clip (xcuse pun) you will need 2.5 to 4 watts of fluorescent light / gallon. If you went for the $$$ grow tubes from the LFS you will be looking at 3-5 tubes for a 3 foot 160ltr tank. But another way is to get those energy saver bulbs that are used around the house to replace the normal incandescent bulbs. An 18w bulb can be picked up for $5 - $7 each. 7 of these will give you 3watts / gallon in the above sized tank. The fittings are around the same price. Not all energy saver bulbs are equal. Those high priced specialised bulbs from the LFS are priced this way because they are "brightest" in the spectrum colours that the plants use. They may look a bit dull to our eyes but plants love them. For energy saver bulbs you need to find a brand that covers a wide range of the spectrum so the plants get the type of light they need. The majority of them don't have a high enough Kelvin rating and the light they produce has a yellow tint to it. Look for one with a Kelvin rating of 56000 or more (pref 64000+) but unfortunatly most don't list the kelvins on the box A rating this high will look like "white" light to our eyes rather then the yellow of an incandescent. The best I have found is also one of the cheapest. Placemakers sell a brand called Rapid. Have used these for the last 2 years and each bulb normally lasts between 6-9 months. The advantage of having many small wattage bulbs over a few large ones is that you can replace them for minimal cost and not be hit with a big bill every 6 months (the recommended time a specialised bulb should be replaced in). Filters May not be needed in a plant only tank. A power head will move the water around more then a filter can. But if you do get a filter then steer clear from hang on the back ones or any type that will case surface distruption. Any break or movement in the water surface will case you to loose C02 from the tank. Fish Rethink this. A few Bristlenoses or/and siamese algae eaters will keep both the tank and the plants clean of algae. Neither of these should harm you plants to any extent that matters. Snails By sterilising any plants before putting them into the tank, snails should never be a problem. But if they do get introduced borrow a Loch (Clown, Skunk etc) from your tropical tank and they will soon end the snail problem. Temperature Tropical plants are called tropical for a reason. Some will grow in temps lower then 20C but most will thrive at 24 to 27C. If you don't plan on heating the tank then choose the plants carefully. Substrate Now we really get onto a touchy subject Plain gravel will work but its not the best. Gravel has a very low CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) rating. Clays and soils are much better but very messy. See http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm#Submerged_Soil_Properties for more technical info then I can get my few remaining brain cells around. Now comes the "touchy" bit. I like Kitty Litter. And no used kitty litter is not the best! Again the cheapest is the most suitable. Woolworths and Foodtown sell a brand in a red bag (forgot the name). This stuff doesn't dissolve to mush when wet and doesn't contain any perfumes or additives. The type of clay it is made from has a very high CEC. Rinse it then layer it on the bottom of the tank and put about 2" of 2-3mm gravel on top. It will eventually get mixed up but even then it will still hold the plants and won't cause a problem in the tank. Anyway hope all this helps. There are many opinions on what is best for a planted tank, the above is just mine.

Sorry Caper, I didn't click onto to it either. :oops: But to answer your question - is Yes, the cloudy water you described would just be the bacteria growth of the new tank syndrom. Weird things can happen at these times.

It sounds like you have lots of plants. Are you using a DIY C02 bottle by any chance? If the yeast over reacts it can force its way through the tubes and into the tank leaving something similar to what you described. Not that I don't know from personal experiance or anything :oops:

Lowering the temps in the tank over a week should be fine. But check out your other fish requirements 1st, i.e. I wouldn't do it with Discus etc. Haven't found light to be too much of an issue. The ones I've got now don't mind coming out into the brigthest area of the tank at all. They hid until they realised that nothing was in their "new pool" that can eat them and now they will hang around the front of the tank while the lights are on. dee_jay_01, you are right about them being good climbers. The smallest one now and again hunts around to a way up & out of the tank. Found him in my prefilter in the sump yesterday when cleaning it- gave me a hell of a fright! They do like protein based foods. Threw in 5 sandhoppers as live food the other day and the 2 crays accounted for 4 of them. Fish didn't have a chance to look at the hoppers.

P.S. Phillz, Swap you a Crans Bully for a Banded Kokopu. BK's and eels are the only natives available around here!

If you do get the tank I would recommend a couple of changes. The Banded Kokopu would be much happier with some sort of floating plant or shelter near the surface to hide under. They don't like bright light. This tank is a bit bare for them, thats why their not showing in the pic - they are probably trying to jam themselves under a rock! Their natural habitat is near the surface under overhanging banks, logs etc. They pick up on insect vibrations on the water surface so normally stay at the top area of the pool (want to spot a wild BK? throw 5mm long bits of stick into a pool in a shaded stream). The Inanga are fine, more of a open water fish then the Kokopu. But despite the seller saying that the BK won't out grow the tank I think they will. They are also very stong fish and may cause some damage to themselves if they panic in this small tank. Be prepared to transfer them to a larger tank in the future. Another negative for the small tank is that it will have greater tempature swings then a large tank. Ask if they have been trained to eat dried food - if from the wild the BK may only feed on live food. Despite all this natives are great fish. Very intelligent. For a cheap chiller see the DIY section - A Chilling Experiment. Not yet 100% proven yet but I'm confident. Take a look at http://www.niwa.cri.nz/rc/freshwater/fishatlas/fishFinder.htm and http://www.nzfreshwater.org/index_main.html for more info on natives.

Was interested in the concept so did a web search. The Krib has a good thread on it. http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/electrolysis.html In a nutshell it seems that the concept works but your luck may vary as to how well.

Don't get me wrong, you are going the right way to become a plant addict Not having a close fitting lid shouldn't matter. I use a wet / dry trickle filter which nearly everybody says is a no no for CO2 ( a W/D filter exposes a lot of the water to air which allows the disolved CO2 to escape). To get the max out of the CO2 you want it to disolve in the water. To do this a bell (upside down container under the water level) with a large surface area could be used or very fine bubbles (airstones are too large and will quickly clog). An alternative if you have a canister filter is to feed the CO2 line into the filter (via the intake pipe?) so it gets churned up and mixed with the water. Put your CO2 bottle on top of the tank near the light. There should be enough heat here to keep it going. The mix you are using is the same as what I used. Adding 1/2 a teaspoon of baking soda will keep the PH down and let the yeast live for a bit longer. Tried brewers yeast and another type I scored from a local winery. Didn't find any difference in the length of time compared to normal bakers yeast. Used to alternate refreshing the mix once every 2 weeks. The yeast lasted about 3 weeks. I used hot glue on both sides of the lid to seal around the tube. Found that forcing the tube still leaked a bit if the tube was bent over and silicon only lasts a day before the CO2 reacted with it and it lets go. Only 4 bad things could happen: Algae growth, leakage into the tank (overfull bottle or drastic yeast production), major PH swings, or tank water syphoning into the bottle if bottle is below water level. Apart from the PH swing nothing else will harm the fish.

Did the DIY CO2 thing for a year until I decided to go low maintenance. You can get very good results. Almost had to borrow a weed eater every week so I could clear the tank enough to find the fish :lol: BUT like man can't live on vitamin C alone, your plants will need more then just CO2. Adding CO2 will make very little difference in plant growth unless they can process it. To do this they need light, nutrients and more light. The more CO2 they get the more light and nutrients they will need. If one or the other is missing then they will slow down growth until a natural balance is reached. For an example, my tank is 185 ltr (160 tank/ 25 sump). In low maintenance mode it has 72 watts of flouresent lighing, no ferts and no CO2 (reasonably highly stocked with fish). Plant growth was Ok but I only had to prune once every couple of months. In high maintenance mode it was running 122 watts of lighting, 2x 1.5ltr bottles of CO2 bubbling away (completely dissolved) and I added 15ml of "Yates Lush" a week. Pruning was a weekly affair with the Anubias nana flowering, and the other plants streaming out O2 air bubbles. In both these examples everything was in balance so I had no problems. Unfortunetly finding these balances is THE hard bit! If one thing is missing then not only will plant growth even out but Algae will take advantage of the situation and be very happy using the left over parts of the formula. Secret is to increase things slowly so plant growth can keep up with the changes and starve out the algae. Light + CO2 + Fertilisers = Growth Light + Fertilisers = Algae :evil: Light + CO2 = Algae :evil: Fertilisers + CO2 = Algae :evil: etc......

All plumbed up and working. One minor change was to replace the flush fitting on the top outlet of the chiller tank with an elbow bend. Found that a flush fitting drags in a lot of air were as an elbow has the inlet below water level and very little air enters the system. The water level in the chiller tank is controlled by a tap on the inlet. Not very obvious in this pic but the tap is 1/2 way up the black pipeing. The temperture dropped much faster with a full chiller tank then in the trickle experiment. Within 3/4hr there was a 4 deg C difference between the aquarium and room tempature. Left = Room, Right = Aquarium I didn't want to stress the fish too much so turned it off and closed off the water flow to the chiller soon after. The fan was set on high for this try out so a low setting should bring down the temperture more gradually. Very pleased with the result. It's not as loud as a fan heater and cheap. $169 for the dehumidifier + $23 for hoses and fittings, everything else I had laying around the house. Still haven't solved the temperture control problem. In the mean time I will just use a timer so it comes on for 1/4hr every 2hrs. Ideally it will be good to just unplug the humidstat probe and plug in a thermostat probe as this will allow the use of the existing dehumidifier controls. A probe could easily be wired up with a thermo resistor but not sure if the power requirements of the existing humidstat probe and the resistor will be the same. Any ideas?

Chillers now completed, well.... until the all bugs show up. Crunch time is tomorrow when I plumb it up to the sump. Tank The tank is made out of 3mm ply coated and glued together with epoxy. The base is extended so I had somewhere to bolt it down to the base of the dehumidifier. Covered it with thin polystyrene, not sure if it was necessary but it was laying around the work shed. Fittings Couldn't find anything to use as bulkheads at the local hardware store so raided the irrigation section and used 19mm / 13mm reducers. The small ends are forced through the holes in the tank and glued in with silicon on the inside. The top one has most of the 19mm end cut off so its almost flush on the inside to allow the coil to fit in the tank. The outside of the fittings are also siliconed. A short section of hose is crimped on the end to stop the fittings from being able to be pushed inwards. The joiner on the top fitting and the elbow on the bottom one will allow me to connect or disconnect the hose without putting to much pressure on the bulkhead fittings. Confident it will hold as I couldn't move them only a few hours after applying the silicon. Water will enter via the bottom fitting, past the coils and flow out of the top one to siphon back into the pump. Although 13mm tube has been used for both the inlet and outlet, a tap is attached to the inlet so I can reduce the pressure to avoid the tank overflowing. Some other things Before attaching the tank I remembered (just!) to jam the water container cut off switch in the on position. Another job was to cut off the drip tray since this would interfere with the air circulation. Also bent up some of the cold end of the coil since leaving it as it was would have exposed some copper pipe to the water (bye bye shrimp and crays!) A lid will follow at a later stage. Do you think the warranty will still apply? I didn't need to put the sides back together since the whole contraption will be covered with a cabinet that matches the stand, but the sides allowed me to firmly mount the top which contains the controls. Had to cut out an area for the copper pipe (it moved out of position when I bent the coil) and holes in the sides to allow air to enter for the radiator. Started it up and it still went. The evaporator coil frosts up almost straight away so it should cool the water fairly fast.

Great idea! That means all the Yucklanders will move down country and I don't have to go through the place to get anywhere. Wellingtonians better prepare for the GREAT JAFA INVASION

By the way, to catch a Cray: Don't even bother trying during the day. You might luck it but if you head out to a bush stream or drain at night then there will be heaps running around having little arguements with each other etc. Just use a aquarium net but put it behind the cray and guide it in with your other hand from its front. Their eyes glow orange in the torch light so they are easy to spot. My night time identification guide: Large orange eyes = crays, small orange eyes = shrimp, Splash = Banded Kokopu, the slimy feeling = 1m long eel crawling around your legs.

Koura would be better in a coldwater tank. But depending on your other tank occupants and plants a compromise could be made at around 22 deg. The crayfish would be ok at this temp and a lot of tropicals can also live happily. Of course like all compromises its not ideal for either party, but do able. Interestingly the warmer the water the faster growing but shorter lived the cray will be. Take a look at http://www.niwa.co.nz/pubs/au/29/koura.htm for more info on their requirements. Got a couple running arond my tank at the moment (coldwater). Interesting little characters that can be entertaining to watch. But if you have any plants in the tank - beware those nippers are great pruning shears :evil:

Steve, Yes you are right, I forgot it would be a semi-enclosed system and the downward pressure will be equal to the upward pressure (less friction as you pointed out). A smaller pump then I was thinking off could be based at the aquarium itself either pulling the water up or pushing it down, rather then at the water tank. Still not feasible in my position (renting) but definitly a workable idea for other people on tank water. By taking the idea a step further for those with a tank below the house, a bypass on the upward pipe could be plumbed into the house supply pipe just above the house pump (with a tap attached) and a bypass with tap connected to the aquariums down pipe. Will make water changes a breeze, just turn the 2 taps on - 1 to drain the aquarium and one to full it up Control, If the delonghi's compressor goes and theres still gas in the coil then it shouldn't be any different to what I'm doing with the no name woolies brand. Hardest part seems to be bending the evaporator coils and thats not hard just scary. If the gas leaks its stuffed! When planning it out I thought of quite a few configurations and ways of using the dehumidifier. Only thing to watch out for is that the radiator is not covered up too much and airflow is restricted. What I'm doing is just what I think best suits my individual system. But stay tuned, it could all end in up in flames

Hi Steve, By looking at the house you might think its ideal. 10000ltr water tank (no mains on Waiheke) 1/2 set in the ground, shady position etc. But any pump will need to lift the water by about 20m and operate for longer periods then house pump and these pumps are bigger $$$ then I want to spend. Also the house is a rental so can't drill holes in the floor etc. Because I rent the chiller really needs to be stand alone. Keep eyeing up the water tank though - Perspex window, few fish thrown in, guests will never know their drinking aquarium water The dehumidifier is starting to look promising. Have managed to get enough courage to bend the coil down. Just need to make a chiller tank for it to fit into and a cabinet to go over the whole contraption. Only worry is how long the aluminum coils will last before they start to corrode in the fresh water.

They are. G gle Pristella maxillaris. A very hardy fish, mine went to hell and came back wanting a return ticket

From the trademe page COURIER! Hope a guy in a small hatchback doesn't turn up :lol: (sorry, I'm in the business so couldn't resist)

I was toying with the idea of dropping the evaporator into the sum. Its made of aluminium so one of the loops could be carefully straightened out enough until the other loops are at ground level. See http://www.guarriello.net/chiller.htm for an example. For you marine guys, the above link also shows how to prevent corrosion of the coils. To drop it into the sump I will need to make a new one. Did some measurements last night and worked out that to contain the same amount of water (to cope with power cuts etc) the Wet/Dry filter will only be a wet one. The sides of the sump will be high enough to make maintenance a pain as well. Instead I might build a "bolt on" cabinet to the side of the stand to contain the dehumidifier and divert some water from the main pump pipe to a chiller tank.

Spent the last week browsing for any information on cooling aquariums for the NZ biotope I'm slowly setting up. When running normally the tank averages 2 deg C above ambient room temperature. I put this difference down to the lights (5x 18 watt energy saver bulbs) and the 2 pumps. Most native fish start to stress at 24 deg (18C or below preferred) so even at this time of year they can be effected since the room temp averages 20 to 22C. In summer it can get as high as 28 so before fully stocking the tank I need to have some sort of chiller operating. Preferably one that can lower the temperature by at least 5 deg of ambient. Of course I can always spend a grand and get a commercial one, but existing aquarium system is almost entirely DIY and only cost $300 fully stocked as a tropical so why spoil a good thing! By the way the tank is 160ltr with another 25ltrs in the sump. Cooling will be a 3 pronged attack: 1. Get the temp down to room temperature. Removing the heater of course helped. Also plan to add a computer fan in the hood to draw air over the bulbs and expel it away from the tank. There is already an existing and opposing gap in the hood on one side where I access the overflow. The hood is fairly low and there is a layer of glass between the bulbs and water. This is acting like a mini greenhouse. Hopefully I can find some plastic egg crate material to replace the glass with. If the lights are left off for a day the temperatures are almost equal so cooling the bulbs should work. 2. Lower the temp by another 5 deg C. This ones a bit harder. For the last week I have had a fan hitched up to the lights timer and blowing directly into the sump. This managed to lower the temp by 2 deg. Not enough. So a chiller is needed. Researched on using Peltizers, Fridges, Air Conditioners, Dehumidifiers etc. Wanted to keep the project under $200 so peltizers were out because of the number that would be required. Everything I read on fridges said that they just weren't powerful enough for the continued operation required. They are also too bulky. A cheap 2nd hand portable air conditioner would have worked but even on Trademe they are above budget. So that left a dehumidifier. When grocery shopping today I literally stumbled into one at Woolworths (why do they always put these things in the way of the trolleys!) $169 for a 10ltr/day dehumidifier was a bit more then buying 2nd hand but I knew it was in good order. Warranty will soon not apply though Poor thing, doesn't know what its in for! 1st test was to see if it was powerful enough to cool the water. Since I didn't want to destroy it before knowing if it would work (could do with one in the house anyway), I rigged up a system that trickles the water over the cold bits. Excuse the technical language. It’s hard to see in the photo but there is a piece of clear pvc tube that is running over the top. This has holes drilled into it and the end blocked off. The water is supplied by tapping into one of the main pump pipes with a 6mm tube. It returns back to the sump via another 6mm tube from the dehumidifiers external drain. The water flow is not great but even with this trickle of chilled water entering the system it has cooled the aquarium by 3 deg below room temperature after 3hrs of operation. This is with the lights on so in reality it has dropped the temp by 5 deg's. It is not the permanent solution since it is energy inefficient and because it is still acting as a dehumidifier its adding more water to the sump then it is being supplied with. Next step will be to work out a method of building a tank around the coils which water from the sump can be pumped into. Complete immersion would avoid any extra water appearing from thin air. The unit is small enough that I can fit it under the stand if I make a different shaped sump. 3. Temperature control Haven't thought of this one much. But do plan on insulating the stand and any exposed pipes to avoid the cool water heating up before entering the main tank. Also need some sort of thermostat that will come on when the temperature reaches a certain mark (unlike a heaters thermostat that comes on if the temp drops below a mark). If anybody is interested I will keep you updated on how to destroy a perfectly good dehumidifier while electrocuting myself and flooding the house at the same time. Cheers Grant

Yes some of the commerical garden ferts work BUT: They have all got a large percentage of Nitrates and Phosphates added to them. These are already ambly supplied by the breakdown of fish poo. Once your plants have taken off then the "natural" Nitrates and Phosphates will be completely removed by the plants and adding more can only help. But until that stage you have to be very carefull of the natural levels before adding more with commercial ferts. Copper is another element that could be overdosed. Some fish are'nt too happy with a large copper count. When choosing commerical ferts, get one with the lowest Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Copper % listed on the back. Make sure the trace elements are in chelated form. Yates Lush Houseplant Food is the best I have found in the local stores - but we're pretty restricted with range. Everything is a question of balance and how much you add will depend on the amount of plant life, light, C02, PH and existing "natural" levels. Experimenting is the name of the game - starting with the smallest amounts (5ml per week?). WARNING Don't use a fert that doesn't have a analysis on the back! I decided to turn my low maintenance tank back into a lush one a month ago but didn't have the normal fertiliser handy so used general Tui brand one (no analysis on the back). Only added 2 teaspoons in the 180ltr tank but it was enough to kill 26 of my fish despite numerous emergency 75% waterchanges as soon as they started to look stressed. Nitrogen, Phosphates, PH, Hardness etc were all within acceptable limits so can only assume there was some chemical in the ferts that poisoned them. Removing the fish into another container without the tank water didn't help. With only 4 Krib's left I have decided to turn the tank into a NZ Biotope so all is not lost, but knowing you have poisoned your fish is not the greatest of feelings